Google's Cutts: The Next Penguin Update Will Be Big

Aug 16, 2012 • 8:41 am | comments (388) by twitter Google+ | Filed Under Google Search Engine Optimization

Brace Yourself For Google PenguinYesterday, At SES San Francisco during the Matt Cutts keynote, Matt answered some questions about the Penguin update that has many SEOs and webmaster shaking in their boots.

Update from Matt Cutts: Matt clarified and gave a lot of context to what he said at SES SF. Here is his comment:

Hey Barry, I wasn't saying that people needed to overly stress out about the next Penguin update, but I'm happy to give more details. I was giving context on the fact that lots of people were asking me when the next Penguin update would happen, as if they expected Penguin updates to happen on a monthly basis and as if Penguin would only involve data refreshes.

If you remember, in the early days of Panda, it took several months for us to iterate on the algorithm, and the Panda impact tended to be somewhat larger (e.g. the April 2011 update incorporated new signals like sites that users block). Later on, the Panda updates had less impact over time as we stabilized the signals/algorithm and Panda moved closer to near-monthly updates. Likewise, we're still in the early stages of Penguin where the engineers are incorporating new signals and iterating to improve the algorithm. Because of that, expect that the next few Penguin updates will take longer, incorporate additional signals, and as a result will have more noticeable impact. It's not the case that people should just expect data refreshes for Penguin quite yet.

As you know, many SEOs are eagerly awaiting a Penguin update but Matt Cutts, the head of search spam at Google, said "you don’t want the next Penguin update." He warned that the Google "engineers have been working hard," on this update.

He even added the next few updates will be "jarring and jolting" for webmasters and SEOs.

I've never seen a warning like this before from Google. It makes it sound like the Penguin update will be felt by many many more SEOs. Our initial poll said about 65% of SEOs were hurt by Penguin - why so many more than Panda which was 40%? Well, this is aim more at SEO techniques despite what Google wants to say otherwise.

Honestly, if Matt is saying this, I wouldn't blame anyone if they are a bit worried.

I wasn't at the talk, many were and the feedback coming out of it is that Matt was sincere about it. Again, I was not there, so I can't be certain.

In any event, make sure to brace yourself for the next Penguin update!

Forum discussion at WebmasterWorld.

Previous story: Google's New Search Snippets Blocked By Robots.txt Warning



08/16/2012 12:49 pm

Google is already Finished... Bing is my new home page... Google is only money making machine for L.Page :)

Praveen Sharma

08/16/2012 12:52 pm

It can be taken in positive way as well, if you were hit by Penguin in previous updates and you have worked hard to overcome your issues, then you must be waiting for next update to be awarded for your hard work.

SEO Consult

08/16/2012 12:53 pm

I have to say it's appreciated that Matt Cutts is being so honest with us. We didn't want any of the updates as it is given the problems it's caused for nearly all SEO's. Keeping up with it has been difficult for many and those getting back on their feet are only going to be knocked over again. Smaller updates seem to be a better way to go in some respects, but I wonder if one large update will be better for future months resulting in less changes for those? Time will tell I suppose. Andy at SEO Consult

Mark Pilatowski

08/16/2012 01:06 pm

Next Penguin Update=Only paid ads and Google owned results on the first page.

Brendan Jackson

08/16/2012 01:12 pm

I don't want to sound all high and mighty here but as an SEO I welcome each algo update. I've been white hat since day 1 and as a result I've seen nothing but positive results from each Panda and Penguin update. If you do things right that are good for the web as a whole, you'll never be affected in a negative way by algo updates.


08/16/2012 01:13 pm

cool, let give google kill themself. I see it as only one results of their black and white animals.


08/16/2012 01:16 pm

agree with you - 100%. Google makes money using our content, but not give us any real information - only their 'want to share ideas from matt cutts'. But in reality it google must adapt to our sites, not we removing keyword stuffing (we still don't know what google mean under it), adding sitemaps, lot of tags & microformats, etc. Google not cares about small webmaster anymore and using us only as tier10 only to make money using our content.


08/16/2012 01:29 pm

In jarring and julting - it's jolting not julting

Andy Sheridan

08/16/2012 01:31 pm

Better brush up your PPC skills people

Barry Schwartz

08/16/2012 01:32 pm

copy and paste, fixed, thanks.

Kevin Spence

08/16/2012 01:32 pm

That's a really nice thought, and I used to feel the same way until one of my sites got slammed. My advice to you is to not get too comfortable, and don't assume that you're immune to anything. The rules change all the time.

Stephen L Nelson

08/16/2012 01:34 pm

Wow, that's discouraging. I've spent last nearly four months cleaning up both the mistakes I've made and those others have made on mature, content rich sites that got slammed. I've deleted (and paid for deletions) of hundreds of links. I've begged, pleaded, cajoled linking sites with webspammy anchor text to either go naked or be natural. I've added thousands and thousands of words of new, rich, unique content--which is more content than some of the sites Google ranks above me even provide in total. Yeah, we probably had duplicate content issues somehow entangled in this--but that issue has also largely been fixed. So, like I said, wow, it'd be pretty brutal to not see improvement... BTW, there's perhaps an alternative explanation for Mr. Cutt's remarks: If Google engineers "working hard" on the next Penguin update think they've got it right this time, maybe they're going to apply Penguin to a larger list of alledegedly overoptimized search terms. This might hit people who've already need hit. But this might also blindside people who now think they're safe. I.e., next update might hit 5% or 10% of searches... not 3%.

Nick Stamoulis

08/16/2012 01:34 pm

I never want to say never, because you never know what's coming (guess I don't mind saying never all that much) but I do agree with you. The tricky thing is that as an SEO professional, we "get it" and understand where that line is. Site owners that are going their own may not and even though they didn't mean to do any harm they messed up somewhere along the road and it's finally catching up to them.


08/16/2012 01:36 pm

I agree Brendan maybe some of these other black hat clowns will get hit up finally.

Webstats Art

08/16/2012 01:43 pm

Yeh Maybe seroundtable will receive a page rank correction and become a PR 1 .. LOL!

Hristo Iliev

08/16/2012 01:47 pm

meta name="googlebot" content="noindex"

Tuesday B

08/16/2012 01:59 pm

Hey Stephen I have also spent around this amount of time cleaning up 3 sites which were hit by penguin and I feel your pain. I feel like banging my head against a wall. My eyes have only just returned to normal after being spreadsheet warped. Has your site recovered now? I removed over half of our link profile and noted each sent/ reply email, each link, each site and if links were no follow ect all down in a spreadsheet then sent it off. If Google think they are working hard on the update then what are we doing? My site has started to recover now but it has still been one of the most gruelling challenges I have faced at work so far.

Terry Van Horne

08/16/2012 02:11 pm

well they are SEO techniques if you think link building is SEO. That's the crux of the matter links became part of SEO which was never the intention OF ANYONE most of all Google. IMO, SEO should be about what you have control over. Many link building techniques that should be proper aren't because AFA Google is concerned 3rd Party site owners are not acting in a responsible manner. For example by rights directories are an unbiased 3rd party, however, that 3rd party started pandering to the industry so they may have made themselves obsolete as they neither send traffic or SEO benefit, in fact there is a lot of debate as to whether they are a drag on rankings.... there are about 3 general directories worth submitting to the rest are ONLY about SERP manipulation! That said I wouldn't disregard niche directories IMO, they still are a part of ranking and do benefit your SEO....the kicker.... they almost always send traffic and sales to your site.

Website Sales Lab

08/16/2012 02:12 pm

Any idea when we should be expecting this?

Liv Jones

08/16/2012 02:16 pm

Next month they'll announce that Panda will remove all websites form the internet, because they're all spam.

Joel K

08/16/2012 02:23 pm

I don't mean to be snarky, but frankly if you've NEVER done anything gray then you either haven't been in the industry for more than 5 minutes or you work in-house under an incredibly ideal set of circumstances. Even sites who haven't been overtly "Black hat clowns" as your friend Bill down there said got MASHED by the last update, not out of laziness or stupidity but because the web is a complicated thing, especially once it collides with real life business.

Gregory Smith

08/16/2012 02:27 pm

I too have made Bing my home-page. I love how they provide a new desktop wallpaper every day lol

Gregory Smith

08/16/2012 02:27 pm

Time will take care of everything, I can assure you that, my friend.


08/16/2012 02:30 pm

So when is enough, enough? When will the thousands of SEO's band together and start our own campaign to knock Google off their pedestal? With all the talent out there, I'm sure there are plenty of people willing to use a little time and resources to advocate for an alternative search engine - I'm talking really push ordinary people to see there are alternative searches. Otherwise, we are keeping our clients on a single point of failure and risk destroying our own businesses by constantly following after Google's changes like little lap dogs.

Gregory Smith

08/16/2012 02:30 pm

You must spend lots of time commenting. I see you everywhere nick!

Bill hartzer

08/16/2012 02:46 pm

Wow, it is amazing how statements can be taken the wrong way and twisted up. I was here yesterday and heard Matt talk about owe upcoming updates. That is NOT his intention. Matt said that the panda updates are now on a more regular schedule, perhaps monthly, asp we are used to them. The impact is not as great on so many websites. The penguin updates are not on a normal schedule so to speak, so when they do hit we will know it. I do not recall him implying that new penguin updates will affect a lot of sites. This was NOT a warning at all, just a statement on the timing of updates.


08/16/2012 02:49 pm

Hilarious how you have danced like a good little Monkey for Matt Cutt's amusement.


08/16/2012 02:52 pm

note it's an update not a refresh


08/16/2012 03:07 pm

i think them already signing contracts with sites who will in top of organic search and creating own sites. It why them make 2 steps (old penguin and new next BW animal)


08/16/2012 03:09 pm

at this time no rules anymore. if google will decide what you must not have keyword in your article - need to adapt? But after penguin everything is possibly, that guys changing rules of game on the way.


08/16/2012 03:14 pm

after next update google will penalize you for whois links/social bookmarks which generated by real surfers. When i checking backlinks in gwt - looks them index all bad links like all sitesays_com subdomains. Just because their algorithm not see the difference and google launched war with webmasters (not even black hat)! i think them will make negative seo is huge market very soon.


08/16/2012 03:21 pm

If the new penguin update is going to allow for only paid and google owned results on the first page, I really have to work on the other search engines now... does anyone know when this is going to change?


08/16/2012 03:22 pm

trying to sell your pathetic services ? You get nothing, just charge people for things you cannot control

Lee Robertson

08/16/2012 03:33 pm

Does this mean that Google is going to slaughter every one that got a unnatural links warning that they then told us all we could ignore? Perhaps Google needs to take a lesson on how to actually communicate.

Eric Wilson

08/16/2012 03:34 pm

You have to be kidding, right?

Jack McGraw

08/16/2012 03:45 pm

Instead of becoming more intelligent, Google is turning into crack. After Next Update, Matt Cutts will be fired from Google, He will find his way to Yahoo as like Marissa but with higher pay-scale. Google Stock goes down by 30 - 50%. 21,122,012 new threads on google forum complaining about webmasters who lost organic traffic.

Matt Slut

08/16/2012 03:50 pm

Behen ki chut google ki! :X


08/16/2012 03:52 pm

google is dieing ! finally a huge decrease in alexa traffic for and a good increase for and also youtube it got a decrease , people are moving to bing and others , this is a huge mistake for google , theire search results are low quality now ... their single chance to recovery their traffic back is to quit any penguin , not to make it even stronger , they are starting to go down.

Jack McGraw

08/16/2012 03:59 pm

After update, Google will be referred as Google Ad Engine in School Books.

Tom Conte

08/16/2012 04:01 pm

User-agent: googlebot Dissallow: /

Codex Meridian

08/16/2012 04:06 pm

Bing is starting to become very popular. If you won't believe me, compare the trend of bing and google in alexa, and see for yourself.

Scott Thomas

08/16/2012 04:17 pm

I hope that it truly is "Jarring and Jolting" for sites using aggressive link building and spammy techniques.

Codex Meridian

08/16/2012 04:23 pm

X-Robots-Tag: googlebot: noindex, nofollow

matt coffy

08/16/2012 04:28 pm

terry, always the voice of reason. Agree 100% on all of this.. I think this will actually be a good thing at the end of the day, listen Google created a reason for us to get into this business. now we have to be Marketers, no SEO jockeys .. the issue is about the fact that there are lot of people who had given into the lazy way, and thats closing up.. it happens in every industry.... i went through the same thing in Wireless in the early 2000's , you need to adapt and expand your offerings.

Codex Meridian

08/16/2012 04:29 pm

Who knows what will happen next? Probably Matt Cutts in the future would confess in the SES that you should have no keywords in the title tag EVER, or you will suffer 666 penalty.


08/16/2012 04:36 pm

Guys, why so effin negative? Is it because you like the way penguin is now? The results are ###bomb horrible. The results will get better.

Mike Gracen

08/16/2012 04:37 pm

Ding ding ding! This will be the reality within the next 12-18 months.

Al Carmona

08/16/2012 04:38 pm

I agree. Google has professed to never becoming evil but the temptation to leverage their dominant position is too great. From personal experience, I've seen an increase in overall organic search traffic but a decrease in conversion rates. That means they're ranking you for keywords that aren't as relevant and you're getting less "buy mode" keyword traffic. You'll have to increase your PPC spend to get that targeted traffic (short and longtail).

Webstats Art

08/16/2012 04:38 pm

You are right about this and if Alexa is correct, then Google is losing to facebook more than often. Since a few months ago they have been bouncing from most popular to second most popular site in the world. I can speak subjectively from what I see around me but I can honestly say that facebook is gaining enormous ground.

Codex Meridian

08/16/2012 04:41 pm

Particularly if Bing can power Facebook search and integrate the "snap" for a more efficient search:

Codex Meridian

08/16/2012 04:44 pm

I'm starting to clean up my backyard a little bit so by 12-18 months, I could start selling fresh lemonade to my neighbours.

Codex Meridian

08/16/2012 04:48 pm

Yes they can do this, one time I observed a certain blog with bounce rates hovering around 66% to 68% for most of the time then suddenly one day it rose up to 74% then down to 72% with no changes in site (no new content added,viral stuff, etc). Google is testing their algorithm daily and probably testing this aspect as what you are thinking. Higher bounce rates means that they are sending you irrelevant traffic even if you have relevant content for your readers. Kind of sad isn't it?


08/16/2012 05:01 pm

Matt Cutts is gonna kill a lot of business very soon, i can tell you that many people will be crying and killing themself.


08/16/2012 05:10 pm

i think now in 2013 onwards pangium update will be on weekly basis and in a year it will remove all the websites from the search engine and only websites using SEM will apear in the search ..


08/16/2012 05:11 pm

Nice try Hollywood.

Barry not Schwartz

08/16/2012 05:21 pm

I am Barry Schwartz I deeply saddened at the vitrol thrown at Google. I love Google. Google is nice. I defend Google becuase they care care about the user not $$. Matt Cutts is the mostest honestest person ever. Danny Sullivan doesn't make money (sell tix to his crappy conference and "exclusive stories") by being a Google buttkisser. Ted Ulle (Tedster of WMW) is not favored by Matt Cutts when sites he runs get hit. Tedster really believes that Google is just "testing" things.


08/16/2012 05:24 pm

I still have sites ranked well with nothing but comment spam and dupe content. :) Bring it Matt!


08/16/2012 05:30 pm

These are algorithmic changes, so you make the changes and the ranking should shift accordingly (unless it's a penalty). You don't need to wait for another update to see if it works - it should be working already If you have been hit and changes you have made have had no effect this is unlikely to resolve the issue.


08/16/2012 05:34 pm

OK so bring on the next load of speculation and industry wide panic. I honestly think it's better to just be blindsided with it than just to be told you're going to be blindsided at some point. If he couldn't be more specific I don't honestly see this as doing anything productive for the industry... knowing just enough to hurt yourself is not better than knowing nothing at all

Matt Cutts

08/16/2012 05:34 pm

Hey Barry, I wasn't saying that people needed to overly stress out about the next Penguin update, but I'm happy to give more details. I was giving context on the fact that lots of people were asking me when the next Penguin update would happen, as if they expected Penguin updates to happen on a monthly basis and as if Penguin would only involve data refreshes. If you remember, in the early days of Panda, it took several months for us to iterate on the algorithm, and the Panda impact tended to be somewhat larger (e.g. the April 2011 update incorporated new signals like sites that users block). Later on, the Panda updates had less impact over time as we stabilized the signals/algorithm and Panda moved closer to near-monthly updates. Likewise, we're still in the early stages of Penguin where the engineers are incorporating new signals and iterating to improve the algorithm. Because of that, expect that the next few Penguin updates will take longer, incorporate additional signals, and as a result will have more noticeable impact. It's not the case that people should just expect data refreshes for Penguin quite yet.

Praveen Sharma

08/16/2012 05:40 pm

I hope it would also improve rankings for the site which got hit by last Penguin update and have worked to overcome their negative issues effectively.


08/16/2012 05:43 pm

Matt, can you please tell us exactly what to fix now then so we are not caught off guard? Don't give us the secret sauce, just be transparent and say "watch your linking text" or "check your HTML for inadvertent alt attributes with keywords in them" or "delete all your old links on "put-it-there-yourself" pages (or nofollow them)" or whatever this new penguin eats :-) That would be awesome transparency that does not give anything new away, just focuses our efforts. Thanks!

Barry Schwartz

08/16/2012 05:44 pm

Thanks Matt. Will update the post as soon as I can.


08/16/2012 05:46 pm

Next update = Google taking over Bing/Yahoo.. Now your rankings are screwed!


08/16/2012 05:47 pm

Thanks Matt, That provides some more useful information. I don't suppose it would be possible for you to provide a post on what the update will be targeting and the steps on spotting sites that will be vulnerable and remedying it. Lots of us work on client sites that have had long and checkered histories with previous agencies and SEO consultants. Meaning there is often a lot in there that could cause problems. Knowing how to identify it and put it right before they get hit would help everyone all round, leaving us more time to work on just making the sites better. So a win all round!

Shirley Tan

08/16/2012 05:56 pm

Bottom line is that Google doesn't want people to be doing SEO at all.Not business owners, not SEO consultants.

Hristo Iliev

08/16/2012 05:57 pm

Hi Matt, A year ago in your pocket panda update, my website was punished load using tags, which long ago been removed from the site and index you!After his punishment, all the rest of my websites were punished in one way or another, but are you violated the rules. 5 times apply for recondition request to you 5 times and got an automated reply that there are still rules you break.However, my former competitors are still working with tags continue to accumulate huge traffic tagging in Bulgaria and are now in top positions. Please tell me where wrong or did not give up the use of Google, and why the punishment of one of my site I have any other penalties?

Dr Peter Thatcher

08/16/2012 05:57 pm

Matt - the issue here is that people change their sites to try to improve their rankings. They are then waiting a long time for a data refresh or update from Google to see if these changes have worked and its kinda stressful for all and bad PR for Google. More transparency on when these updates or refreshes are going to occur would be really useful. A list of target dates (which Google must have internally) for these would be really useful to reduce everyone's stress levels and allow webmasters to do what they have to do!

Mike Kalil

08/16/2012 05:59 pm

Some more context would be nice. There isn't a full transcript out there?

Jennifer Slegg

08/16/2012 06:03 pm

This definitely wasn't what Matt was implying at all, but I wasn't sure if your source on this was just the quotes a guy pulled out from the WebmasterWorld post. Totally taken out of context of what Matt was really saying, which was talking about the timelines for future Penguin updates. The jolting and jarring comment was more about updates being noticeable, not that webmasters should be shaking in their boots about what a big impact it will have on webmasters in general.

Stephen L Nelson

08/16/2012 06:06 pm

Hey, that's not nice. Next thing I know, you'll also be making fun of me because i'm wearing a fez and a red felt vest.

mike floyd

08/16/2012 06:14 pm

Thanks for the clarification Matt. My concern is that since you said the next few updates will be "jarring and jolting" for webmasters, what is to stop a competitor from building a lot of poor quality links to my site, knowing that I will be penalized for it? Do you think you just declared the start of the negative SEO war or is your goal to determine which links are spammy and just disregard them? I can understand how disregarding might be "jarring and jolting" to sites that have had artificial authority based on poor quality links, but it seems like by penalizing sites you would be encouraging massive amounts of webspam.


08/16/2012 06:16 pm

I don't know - it seemed pretty "warning-ish" to me. I especially like the "you don’t want the next Penguin update." How is that not a warning?

Mike Kalil

08/16/2012 06:17 pm

What about the "jarring and jolting" statement?


08/16/2012 06:28 pm

thank you for letting us know what Matt was saying...

Miranda Miller

08/16/2012 06:29 pm

re: "I've never seen a warning like this before from Google." You still haven't. Neither have I, and I was there. Talk about taking things out of context!

Jim Christian

08/16/2012 06:29 pm

Personally I think Matt and the search team are on the right track. This isn't about how well YOUR site ranks in Google but the overall experience that the average person has on Google. I'm not saying that Google is perfect by any means but the goal of having only relevant results come up is great from a user perspective. Do you really want Viagra results? Are you looking to enhance your breasts? Six out of ten results on page one are affiliates? Yet another DMOZ clone! Let us not forget where we were only a few years ago...

Lyndon NA

08/16/2012 06:33 pm

@MattCutts:disqus Is there anychance of the newer Penguin hitting Spammy Link Practices like dodgy footer links etc., you know, stuff that is intended to manipulate Relevancy and PageRank ? It would be great to see G take apart shoddy SEO practices, rather than hitting mediocre, partially offensive (and usually naive) sites and businesses. Thanks.

Mike Kalil

08/16/2012 06:33 pm

This seems to have come from a WebmasterWorld posting, not a first-person account of someone who was at the talk. I think attribution to that effect would be appropriate, since the lede makes it seem as though it's been confirmed. Also, the WebmasterWorld posting has "jarring and julting" - misspelling and all - not in quotations, so it's unclear if the author is quoting Cutts directly or if he's paraphrasing. I used to work as a journalist. If I ever pulled something like, I'd be fired - and rightly so. Maybe you don't consider yourself a journalist, but you can't just post stuff without confirming facts like this and expect not to get flamed. I'm sure you're generating lots of traffic with this post, but you're also messing up a lot of people's day. I'm not saying this isn't accurate. You just clearly don't know whether this is what Cutts actually said. (And by judging his response, it isn't).


08/16/2012 06:49 pm

Matt is great at twisting words... "I'm happy to give more details" followed by a complete lack of detail. I hope you lose your job as a result of massive anti-trust actions that are long overdue.


08/16/2012 06:57 pm

Lol.. the next one will be a Tsunami in the SEO World ^_^ I wonder will it be on 21st December 2012 ?? The Day when everything ends? lolz..


08/16/2012 07:08 pm

why would any sane person trust a word this guy says? Look at results: Google earnings are going through the roof after each update that destroys our sites. Google is rigged to the core, all search is geared towards making Google more money short term and to promote Google's services. Take a hike liar. Shame on Barry that continues to quote this professional liar, without questioning his motives. Follow the money, Google needs more money to show an increase in earnings for this year and for the next. Google is rigged, Matt Cutts is a liar and a fraud.

Buy Ads

08/16/2012 07:09 pm

Buy ads, that's all Google cares for.


08/16/2012 07:11 pm

Idiot, Matt does nto care about YOUR job or clients. His client is $GOOG, he and every Googler are stockholders and want the stock to go up right now.

yuz an ass kissing hoe

08/16/2012 07:14 pm

Miranda, Matt Cutts' hoe (not literally, that would be too honest)


08/16/2012 07:15 pm

don't do a damn thing for these crooks, just write to Senators and Congress people. Each Panda update destroyed sites and increased Google's revenues.


08/16/2012 07:17 pm

This statement is as paranoid as it is wildly inaccurate.


08/16/2012 07:23 pm

Lulz, you guys think I care about Robots.txt or Meta data anymore?


08/16/2012 07:38 pm

You cannot imagine how many Google users would thank you. The removal of SEO'd sites would be a godsend. I might actually be able to find real content for a change without having to wade through 30 sites of trash.


08/16/2012 07:40 pm

Buy Ads = Only Honest Advice. Google wants to kill all non-paying traffic, they already did it with Products. Stop daydreaming that Google cares about you, or transparency.

Mike Kalil

08/16/2012 07:43 pm

Maybe that should've been a red flag in the first place?


08/16/2012 07:51 pm

And yeah only Google products on first page too.

Miranda Miller

08/16/2012 08:05 pm

Wow. I'm a hoe for pointing out the inaccuracy and hyperbole of a fear mongering article based on statements made in a forum by this guy? Mmkay. Keep drinking the Koolaid.


08/16/2012 08:20 pm

I don't think Google does care about transparency or really helping webmasters. Their silence here will be the proof. If they did, they would help us and tell us what to frickin fix BEFORE they hit us, not after.

Darrell Evans

08/16/2012 08:22 pm

It really doesn't matter what happens, I've learned that traffic sources must be diversified. Yes, it's harder. Yes, you have to learn more and how to adapt and yes, paid must be part of the formula. I'm done whining about Google's nonsense.

Jaan Kanellis

08/16/2012 08:42 pm

LOL so true Mark


08/16/2012 08:45 pm

Great social networking is definitely kooking nore and more attractive all the time.


08/16/2012 08:46 pm

looking not kooking lol see these updates have me all worked up.

Hristo Iliev

08/16/2012 08:47 pm

Really? If all webmasters do this, Google users would search only in youtube, blogpost, an other google projects. How about this? Is this your perfect search engine? I'll tell you, noooo. Google is great because webmasters do this, but now Google wants to work with them. Well tell me, why do sites, fill them with content, to have something to find in google? I do not think so!

Rob Woods

08/16/2012 08:50 pm

They will never tell you exactly what to fix as it gives those who are pushing the envelope too much information about just exactly what works and what doesn't. They have to limit information to the "many" because of the "few" that would exploit that information. If Google tells people exactly what doesn't work, they are inferring information about what does still work that they can't catch.

John Britsios

08/16/2012 08:54 pm

Lyndon I spotted a few websites involved in the implementation of the most dodgy practices I have seen the last few years.(link wheels, footer links, and more, but I did not report them to the Google Web Spam Team yet, because I am waiting for the next Penguin update to see if they will be caught. I will post the links here if the Penguin will fail.

Chuck Reynolds

08/16/2012 08:54 pm

well... just another day in paradise. I know what stuff is going to hit me hard and the other stuff I just surf it in when it comes :) Tally ho


08/16/2012 08:59 pm

Once more into the fray....


08/16/2012 09:01 pm

I will convince all people in the world to use Bing and it will be end the fun for Google :)) Do You want to know how I do this?


08/16/2012 09:02 pm


Hristo Iliev

08/16/2012 09:05 pm

Let's make a group in Facebook: Webmasters Blackout, and event which show that we are the ones that make google useful and interesting for people, аnd may at last stop we entered the zoo.


08/16/2012 09:10 pm

Your loss, You could had a very valuable knowledge for free... But now, Bye bye :))


08/16/2012 09:21 pm

and later bing will become next google. what you will do in this case?


08/16/2012 09:33 pm

You still at home with your mom don't you?


08/16/2012 09:49 pm

Rightly said. !


08/16/2012 09:49 pm

For sure it will take them a little. We will have some time to make a shytload of money in this time :))) But if you to not like my plan, we can only dream about this. ;)))


08/16/2012 09:51 pm

Read the Webmaster Guideliness and also the blog posts about the changes Google is making each month. It's really not difficult at all.


08/16/2012 10:00 pm

Nonsense, he could say: hey watch your linking for this next update. That would be SOMETHING and it is not giving away any secret sauce - everyone knows links are part of their algo.


08/16/2012 10:21 pm

Thats ok, when everyone starts using Bing, My website will be safe

Lyndon NA

08/16/2012 10:26 pm

Well, best of luck with the SRs. (I'm not holding my breath on G getting this right at all - and I haven't seen G take action on things like obvious footer spam etc. either)

Joel K

08/16/2012 10:38 pm

Telling us to 'watch our linking' is about as helpful as telling us that "the update will be big". That doesn't actually MEAN anything.

Rob Woods

08/16/2012 10:41 pm

Isn't that exactly what he said? Penguin is based on incoming links. If Matt says there's more iterations coming to Penguin, he IS telling you that there are going to be changes to the algo based on sites' link profiles. QED. I can't imagine that generic advice like "watch your linking" is going to give you any actionable information. Google will never give you specific advice like "these are the exact kinds of links that don't work anymore" because that gives information on what kinds of "gray" links DO still work.

Rob Woods

08/16/2012 10:57 pm

that's a more succinct way of putting it. Telling me that the next iteration of an update that was all about links, will also be all about links, so watch your links, doesn't help much. I'm not criticizing Matt here, I'm just saying that Google can't give exact examples of what to watch for as that info can be exploited.


08/16/2012 11:44 pm

actually telling me that the algo will be about links helps me tremendously - as there are many, many other black hat areas it could have been about


08/16/2012 11:46 pm

Gee, Barry... what happened? You used to have a much more mature group. Half of them seem to be crybabies now (with a name-caller thrown in here and there). I'm no fan-boi, but I AM a businessman, and I can see that in general terms, Google is doing exactly what I'd be doing if I were chairing their board. Their goal is to present clean, relevant SERPs. Those that are cluttering the SERPs deserve to be slapped. Yeah, I feel badly for the innocent victims... but I'm thinking there may be a lot of disparity between the number of folks that SAY they're innocent, and those that really ARE. As for getting more information on what needs to be fixed, I'd like that, too. But as @twitter-16889434:disqus said, they have to be very careful how much clarification they give, or it'll be exploited. Personally, I think they can give us more than they are. And from Matt's comments surrounding this year's coming evolution, it sounds like he may agree. Flooding the comments with insults and innuendos probably isn't nearly as productive as figuring out how to stay between the lines, ya think?

Barry Schwartz

08/17/2012 12:11 am

:) My fault.

Alena Tukman

08/17/2012 12:12 am

I agree with you on 100%. Some of my competitors started the same time with me, having less links or no good links at all, have a better ranks. Same age domains and same wordpress theme! They have no or very little of original content. I have at least 2x more articles written by me.A week ago, Google had ranking my website again and my articles got rank 0, but "disclosure policy", a new page (with no original content and no links) ranked 1. ???


08/17/2012 12:32 am

Why should we fear the next Google update? Those that hold stock in Google should fear the next update. Google's recent history proves their engineers have not worked hard enough to prevent major domain crowding. I mean 7 front page listings in the SERPS for a single site? HA Also, Google's excessive manual actions prove Google's algorithm is in serious trouble and Google is manually reviewing the SERPS like directories do. Will DMOZ overtake Google's dominance? If Google's engineers keep breaking the algorithm it just may happen!

Brandon McVey

08/17/2012 12:47 am

Dumb question.. 99.999% of the population has no idea whats going on here and don't care. People are a creature of habit. Who's gonna switch to Bing? ( I say ALL webmasters switch to Bing RIGHT NOW! That'll learn em )

Barry Schwartz

08/17/2012 01:09 am

You mean Penguin, not Panda right? In any event, I clearly said above, "Again, I was not there, so I can't be certain." So I am glad you clarified. Either way, you can see how these "quotes" can be taken out of context by both people in attendance and those who hear it 2nd hand. A lot came out of this discussion and I suspect a lot more will come out soon.

Barry Schwartz

08/17/2012 01:12 am

a typo should be a read flag? fyi, this quote was on several blogs

Barry Schwartz

08/17/2012 01:13 am

Miranda, I do appreciate you giving more context here.

Barry Schwartz

08/17/2012 01:15 am

This jarring and jolting quote is on several live blogs, I verified that before posting.

Barry Schwartz

08/17/2012 01:17 am

I am not sure what you are saying?


08/17/2012 02:29 am

Golden star for the day. Put it up on your sticker chart. (pat on the back) Buying ads is a faster way to get exposure. Google makes that pretty clear... Spend money with us, we'll put your advertising on the front page, people will click it, you get targeted people coming to your website. Oh... did you forget that we're a business. Oh... we're sorry. What's the security number on the back of your credit card... ok, thanks. Cha-ching How can you honestly think that there is enough paid advertising to fill up the whole freaking index. mehe he he he I think they have something like what you're implying Google's business model is becoming... Oh... That's right... it's called a paid directory and there are literally tens of thousands of those things. Seems to be working out well for the yellow pages. Winning. Not. Should have innovated on that big ugly yellow book that gives me a reason to take out the trash.


08/17/2012 02:33 am

It's their business. What do you expect? Go get mad at Amazon now for selling the Kindle through their store. lol


08/17/2012 02:35 am

Interesting. I personally think that Google could remove all the spam out of their index and also spend some money finding ways to keep it out. That would probably make their business grow. Wouldn't you think? Better visitor experience for Google means more money in the bank.


08/17/2012 02:37 am

Do you think that Google would just buy my paid directory if I set it up? It would be called and businesses would have to pay to be in it. Google could also advertise their own products in it. I'm sure visitors would like using it because it wouldn't deliver answers. Visitors don't want answers. And we wouldn't have things like youtube videos because visitors don't like those either. I think visitors would just want to see businesses who paid for inclusion in the directory.


08/17/2012 02:40 am

Next, they are going to design a massive laser array and shoot down satellites one by one. Oh the humanity. Would you be happy if Obama could use his socialism powers on Google and make them give you money. Cough it up Google.


08/17/2012 02:42 am

When I was a kid, we called that tattling. lol You're a real help... to Google. lol


08/17/2012 02:44 am

Who's to say that they aren't outranking you for other reasons?


08/17/2012 02:58 am

after few more update google will known by "product base search engine"...

Trần Duy Ninh

08/17/2012 02:59 am

Too many ads at the firts page, my site is ranking top 5 but still below a fold ....

John Britsios

08/17/2012 04:21 am

I have a friend who asked how can he block Googlebot but not all other engines and I respond: And you know what happen? He did it! He also said that he is pissed with Google because he have been unfairly or mistakenly classified by the Panda algorithm which I can confirm, and that he prefers donate his PageRank to the sites he is linking to. Noindex,etc does not prevent crawling, so the majority of his PageRank can pass to external sites or. But that is not all. He wants now to sell links on his site. What do you think about that? I think that is really funny. LOL

Sanket Patel

08/17/2012 04:31 am

I am eagerly waiting for next penguin updates algorithm and what are the new techniques Google apply for avoiding spam and how it will affect all SEOs.


08/17/2012 04:32 am

First Page Ads = $10/click Second Page Ads = $5/click Organic Traffic comes on the third page.. WTF! Can someone build a better search engine please?

Peter Daams

08/17/2012 04:39 am

Swapped to Bing myself last month as well and am quite happy with the results. Unfortunately sometimes they don't update as quickly which drives me back to Google. Or when I need to see what rankings are like in G of course :0

John Britsios

08/17/2012 04:45 am

Great comment Doc! I am fully with you.

Mudit Grover

08/17/2012 05:04 am

and you think link wheels and footer links are new?

Hristo Iliev

08/17/2012 05:29 am

38,000 unique users a day before a panda = 100 unique users a day after panda.


08/17/2012 06:56 am

them just not have a sites to rank right now. imagine what will happens after next penguin.


08/17/2012 07:05 am

Google depends upon us. Google main earnings are from Adsense. If we all get united We can get google to run according to us. Because If we block google to index our site but allow other search engines it obvious that people will start using other search engines when they will not get their favorite websites in Google and What If We all remove Adsense and use any other for some days.. Google earnings will be dropped hugely and many of us got many popular websites with die-hard fans we can also request them to use other search engine like bing or any other. We obvious can decrease google traffic too but only if all are united. Nobody can do it alone. Everyone in a business are united like truck union, shopkeepers union..etc but we don't have one.


08/17/2012 07:12 am

Hey Randy, it is well known that Google doesn't depend of their AdSense Publishers. The Google earnings coming from AdSense Publishers is minimum. If Google cancel Adsense tomorrow they perfectly can remains making millions per day. Most of their earning comes from and Ads in SERPS and Ads on their own Networks and that is probably why right now Google wants to fuck all of us, Google doesn't really need us right now, probably some years ago when they started, but now, Webmasters and AdSense Published are just a load for them.

Christian Kunz

08/17/2012 07:17 am

Lots of speculation - I am going to wait until it's clear what changes are up to come and concentrate on improving the known issues of my sites. Better than action on spec and to realize afterwards that it was the wrong direction.

Small Business Man

08/17/2012 07:28 am

I have to agree with intern. I have been hit hard, I have to use adwords in the short term which their was no budget for, i'm using my savings until I start seeing a return. Google needs to go easy on us little small buisnesses as we are their bread and butter. Google also needs to be taken down a peg or two, no company should have the god given right to have this much power in the palm of their hand. Wouldn't it be fab if a bunch of super intelligent programmers started developing an open source search engine project to slap Google's wrists and told to sit down. As we know open source is a way more powerful and transparent entity, than Google could ever hope to be.


08/17/2012 07:46 am

Hello John..But I had heard that Google main earnings are from Adsense because there are a number of webmasters using adsense but May be I am WRONG. But At least search depends upon us. People want to go to our websites through Google. We can get traffic from other search engines. 60% websites are owned by bloggers/webmasters. What If we all block Google??? Or request on our websites that use a particular search engine.


08/17/2012 08:11 am

It’s important to note that practically all the YouTube videos that appear in search have advertising attached. I tested this with my own videos, they are far more likely to appear in organic search if you allow adsense. So it is in Google’s monetary interest to include these videos in search.


08/17/2012 08:36 am

The Google business model appears to be very similar to the growth of free to play games. It starts with a free experience so lots of people use it. Then when people are hooked the charges start to appear, the best example of this is how Google product listings will change from free to a charged service. However for Google it’s even easier than the game market because the majority of users who just want to search are not effected by any charges so are not aware or effected by a majority paid inclusion service. That’s why its very unlikely Bing or anyone else will overtake Google. These issues we are discussing here do not affect the average Google user so will continue.

akia johnson

08/17/2012 08:44 am

ha ha ha............:)

Mohammad Shadab

08/17/2012 09:02 am

You are so funny @jackmcgraw:disqus .


08/17/2012 09:51 am

But Amazon doesn't use our content to attract users. There were lots of complaints to European Commission about Google misusing its dominance to promote their own products.

Inbound Marketing Expert

08/17/2012 10:05 am

Your are right!


08/17/2012 10:09 am

How could I so foolishly not recognise that Google is a business and as such their employees are ultimately there to generate revenue. Thank you for pointing that out. I will put it in my little advice box and look at it every night. Here was I, like some kind of fool, thinking the best way to get information from someone was being nice to them. Now I understand that the best way is to be rude to them and anyone who is also not rude at them. I would dearly love to be able to gain some more insights into your keen and sharp mind but I fear that you talents are wasted on such a petty platform as this.


08/17/2012 10:29 am

so if google is now crap. what's the best search engine to use?


08/17/2012 10:42 am

ha ha and yeah imagine Apple coming up with their search engine.


08/17/2012 10:59 am

you are right some new site and no links got on the top position in google. I think Google or even Matt play us all.. They even don't care about us..


08/17/2012 11:03 am

exact the new penguin algorithm is : if seo then get rid of your site because we want your adwords money.


08/17/2012 11:04 am

haha Google is an Ad engine indeed, i have now moved do duckduckgo and bing for my searches and i find REAL information , finally !

Website Developers India

08/17/2012 11:20 am

Quite Possible..

Sergio Rodríguez

08/17/2012 11:31 am

Every Google update is becoming a kind of nightmare for all the webmasters.


08/17/2012 11:32 am

I think in the next penguin updates Google will only give the priority to old age domain and reputed sites, and the rest are paid sites.

Barry Schwartz

08/17/2012 12:05 pm

So yes, @MattCutts:disqus is replying to your Q here but at the same time, Google has been all about links this year. He didn't say specifically Penguin is about links, although most SEOs believe it is. I'd be putting words in his mouth, which I do all the time with him and other Googlers, if I said that. I'll probably think this over the weekend and post on this on Monday.

Mike Kalil

08/17/2012 12:50 pm

I'm saying maybe it should've been a red flag that you should take a random guy posting in a forum's words with a huge grain of salt.

Barry Schwartz

08/17/2012 12:51 pm

I verified the quote from several other blogs live blogging.

Charles Crawford

08/17/2012 12:54 pm

Apple Search.....There's an app for that.

Iulian Ghisoiu

08/17/2012 01:09 pm

So what? We'll migrate to Bing, all of us.

Rick Noel, eBiz ROI, Inc.

08/17/2012 01:14 pm

Matt Cutts is the Ben Bernanke of Search. A few words and the SEO industry quakes, and for good reason.Time to baton down the hatches and make sure you have a battery powered radio and flash light nearby for when things go dark!


08/17/2012 01:19 pm

After next update we should move to Bing.

Kulwant Nagi

08/17/2012 01:21 pm

whatever you launch please don't hurt my site !! :D

marina schmid

08/17/2012 01:27 pm

ha ha

Vjatsheslav Gaidenko

08/17/2012 01:32 pm

It's all good, however, I keep seeing first page results with 1 page websites, bombarded with 50k xrumer links, and yet my sites get punished for going white hat. It looks to me right now this game is all backwards. Should I join the dark side too?

Thomas Brewer

08/17/2012 02:03 pm

All the National sites have very strong footer structures. What makes that spammy if it helps navigation. By the way the nationals are winning this. You have your footer answer.


08/17/2012 02:36 pm

May I suggest you shut up?!


08/17/2012 02:40 pm

Really... nobody likes what you have to say! :-)


08/17/2012 02:47 pm

I read this post yesterday, and I'm back here again. Just to read the comments. Google's team should really read these comments to know how much we webmasters hate Google


08/17/2012 02:51 pm

"many SEOs are eagerly awaiting a Penguin update"...I seriously doubt that...actually many are not waiting and hoping it never happens. If you were hit badly, maybe you have reason to "eagerly wait" but if you were not, there is no reason to call for this update. And I suspect that 90% of SEOs were not badly hit...So this is another hype call for Google to do something, call for Matt Cutts to hurry up because SEO news industry is out of news, what the hell we are going to write about...


08/17/2012 02:57 pm

You are certainly right... i guess it already happened


08/17/2012 03:10 pm

So from Matt Cutts response he's admitting they messed up with the last one and have been working hard to fix it? "in the early days of Panda, it took several months for us to iterate on the algorithm"


08/17/2012 03:13 pm

No one cares anymore...Google has become so unstable its not even worth keeping up with it....===>Build a Brand


08/17/2012 03:16 pm

Can't wait to see the next ad update, I mean Google update. Good luck to everyone!

FU shills

08/17/2012 03:56 pm

The biggest problem are people like Barry, Danny Sullivan and other Google shills that do not dare ask Google serious questions. A huge FU to all the shills. The new Google believes that if can traffic for commercial queries you should pay Google a fee, that's why each iteration and animal increases Google' clicks on ads and earnings. That's the new relevancy but it's illegal and immoral. Once again, a huge FU to Barry Schwarz, Danny Sullivan, Chris Crum and other butt-kissers that are letting Google lie in front of our faces. Challenge Google, call FTC and point it to decent tech writers.

Barry Schwartz

08/17/2012 03:58 pm

I love you too.

FU Really

08/17/2012 04:04 pm

Think I give a fcuk about what you say? You and your idol, Danny Sullivan are shills. You keep pushing Google PR speak to ruin us but to improve your bottom line. What are you gonna write about when it's virtually all PPC?

Barry Schwartz

08/17/2012 04:06 pm

Yea. That is it. Google pays me.

FU Really

08/17/2012 04:09 pm

WMW, Bret Tabke's forum is dead and he only makes money thanks to Matt Cutts that promotes Pubcon tickets and shows up to lie. In return Brett has some Google shills like Tedster and Robert Charlton that berate those bashing Google and close threads questioning Google's motive$. This is what Mr Brown Noser himself, the spineless Danny Sullivan said: "Keep in mind, however, that for all the “losers” in any update that will scream, there will be winners — perhaps even some of the sites that lost initially." Yeah Danny you POS, when Google increases ad clicks even more (42% after Penguin) they will be winners that don't scream.


08/17/2012 04:22 pm

You're saying Google is not doing good enough job of removing spam. Even after so many years of existence?


08/17/2012 04:42 pm

i think priority may be given only to google own sites


08/17/2012 04:47 pm

i think if google ad testing will continues & new bad updates really will launched soon, it will only one way to go for us. if we not will get any traffic from google, may be better to block googlebot to not spend our server resources. At this case google can read and follow their guideline without us and google voice will mean nothing for us at all.


08/17/2012 04:52 pm

i think average persons love to click adwords ads and see it everywhere. Them just don't know where and what is organic search results. yes, google is perfect from their money making perspective, biggest MFA website in the planet, really just a content scrapper.


08/17/2012 05:00 pm

Remove the vitrol, and they're point has more than a grain of truth to it. MC used to provide reasonable assistance. Now it's 100% unrefined corporate bullshit. If you're attempting to report on this stuff credibly, howzabout someone either actually hold his feet to the fire and get some reasonable and straightforward answers, or start titling the articles 'more sweet nothings from bobblehead MC'. It's google's pablum, but you're holding the spoon to serve it up. And some segment of your market is calling you out on it. Carry on with this type of stuff and you might as well change your screen name to Anderson Cooper.


08/17/2012 05:05 pm

.....and you didn't actually SAY WHEN the next penguin update would happen. Go like this: Say "we expect in about six weeks, give or take". All you did was talk about timing of Panda updates.

Justin Snyder

08/17/2012 05:21 pm

Google is experiencing a mindblowing profit orgasm in return for selling their soul to Satan. Their Search product is all FUBAR - we all know that and pretty soon everyone else will too. They need competition real bad and what a day when it's back to a level playing field for everyone again.

Michael Haley

08/17/2012 06:54 pm

This seems like non-sense. What is to fear? Haven't SEO's abandoned un-natural techniques? Isn't SEO all about creating quality benefical content? If you are an SEO that has been doing it right... I wouldn't fear, but rather rejoice. I am expecting to see another improvement in rankings just like the original release of penguin.


08/17/2012 06:59 pm

What about our readers and customers?


08/17/2012 07:23 pm

I was in the room when this discussion took place and what you have written here is pure fear mongering. There wasn't a 'warning' or any type of negative tone to anything that was said, other than the guy that actually did press a semi-tough question to MC about Google Knowledge. But I'm sure you got all the newbies, spammers, and geeks pissing their panties like little girls with this article. Congratulations, really Pulitzer prize winning stuff here.

X Seo

08/17/2012 07:37 pm

Fuck SEO :)

X Seo

08/17/2012 07:38 pm

Next update- Die SEO

X Seo

08/17/2012 07:39 pm

well said Barry :)

X Seo

08/17/2012 07:42 pm

Even I Am shifting towards designing lol

X Seo

08/17/2012 07:46 pm

webmaster...u mean SEOs sure!

X Seo

08/17/2012 07:47 pm


X Seo

08/17/2012 07:50 pm

exactly mike

X Seo

08/17/2012 07:51 pm


X Seo

08/17/2012 07:52 pm

So you are doing inturn in SEO?lol just kidding :)


08/17/2012 08:11 pm

I agree that these are the types of links Google is going to come down on, especially if they are excessive.


08/17/2012 08:19 pm

Don't people spend less time on your site when everything is peachy keen with Google? I also find it comical how Barry and Danny act like Google is making these changes for the sake of quality. If you think this is true, why did Google turn Google shopping into a paid shopping comparison site? Isn't it ironic how all of these changes are happening at around the same time?


08/17/2012 08:24 pm

And why Google shouldn't turn it into a paid version ? Why do you think that you're legal to earn and Google is illegal ?


08/17/2012 08:33 pm

WoW, what a scream. Seems like SEO is finally dead. No unnatural links. No keywords manipulation. No spam of all kind. No algo holes exploiting. Pure creation. The best will win. Good job Google !


08/17/2012 08:53 pm

Because it means they are abusing something they preached for years and gain profit of it. Dude, where the hell do you come from? Aren't the FTC investigations a sign enough for you that Google is not acting right? Get your head out of where you've got it stuck, it is not a matter of seo it is a matter of how your little brain is being used as a lab rat to do all the testings so they can cash in faster/quicker and with less investment.


08/17/2012 09:01 pm


Setya Dwi

08/17/2012 09:54 pm

google is more scary every new update algorithm for bloggers. Do you agree?


08/17/2012 10:57 pm

Because they use tactics to eliminate the competition and then help themselves to the whole pie.


08/17/2012 11:14 pm

Is that what Google's doing? Maybe this infographic: explains what Google is truly doing.


08/17/2012 11:31 pm

I hope Apple do do a search engine. They hate Google enough that they may do it without needing a profit :)


08/18/2012 12:11 am

Yes until then we have to tolerate their misuse of dominance.


08/18/2012 12:28 am

Domain crowding is good for google profits. the one site that dominates the results won't use adwords but the other 9 sites that used to appear on the front page will be fighting each other in adwords.


08/18/2012 12:30 am

John is right, adsense revenue is not their main earner, it was either here or searchengineland or maybe some other seo blog where they outlined revenue streams at google and adsense is way down the list.


08/18/2012 12:38 am

It would be a competitor to Google! That is a good thing!!! You saying competition is bad?


08/18/2012 01:51 am

The comment discussion was only started by what was or wasn't said at the SES. The discussion has moved on from that! To generally what Google is doing! and what google is doing does not bode well for anyone in the SEO industry. One day all the SEO advice you will be able to give a client is buy adwords. Your really think they are going to pay an SEO for that advice? The thing is this could spell the end of blogs like this. Why would I bother coming here if all I need to do is buy adwords ads?


08/18/2012 01:56 am

I looked at this recently and it appears to be more about The summer break than anything real. You can look at the alexa for searchengineland and seroundtable and get the same thing. Bing just got through the summer break a little better than most sites. probably because there are so many irate seo's using bing instead. We will only get a definitive answer in a few months time.


08/18/2012 01:59 am

Only way to stay positive is to have a good adwords budget! Which you probably have!


08/18/2012 02:01 am

The discussion has moved on from What Matt did or did not say! It is now a discussion about what Google is doing in general, which way it is heading! If you can't understand that then you might be in the wrong industry!


08/18/2012 02:02 am

Oh yes I mean SEOs and Webmasters.. I'm here having hard time with my blog here at since the last update. And now there's gonna be another one. OMG


08/18/2012 02:43 am

I think what is happening here Barry is that whether you want to believe it or not Google has declared war on the industry you are a leader in. One day soon you and people like Danny Sullivan might be forced to choose sides. As much as FU is being overly agressive he has a point. I know I won't bother coming back to this blog if all the advice I get here is buy adwords ads as that is the only SEO open to 99% of webmasters and SEO's. I know many of my clients won't be paying me to tell them buy adwords ads. They will hear that once and after that when I try to call them all I will hear is crickets! Already the above the fold experience at Google has become all ads in at least 20% of searches. When that becomes 80-100% why would I bother with SEO? The SEO industry is looking for champions, Danny Sullivan kind of filled that roll in the past but his closeness to Matt Cutts is starting to make him look like a turn coat, where as once it was a benefit. I think that horse has been flogged to death. We are all pretty sick of Matt now. Yes I know we have all heard that SEO is dying a million times before. However those time were different Google is now moving into content production and doing anything it possibly can to drive people to adwords. Although I have mostly in the past been a moderate, I am now starting to think that Matt and people like him at Google are the enemy and must be fought. Sad but true. Google is now definitely starting to do evil and that "do no evil" sentence needs to be removed from their mission statement. As an aside I hoping that Matt is just a pawn! and doesn't realize what is happening but I suspect he is deep enough in the organization to be privy to what is areally going on!


08/18/2012 02:46 am

LOL taking a quick look at your backlink profile I would be concerned if I was you!


08/18/2012 04:04 am

Now I have my issues with Google but I know that they are trying as hard as they can. This AI testing takes a lot of time.


08/18/2012 04:10 am

It doesn't mean they eliminate competition, if they don't deliver free traffic to your web property. It means your web property is not good enough to get free traffic.


08/18/2012 04:23 am

Why losers do care about others all the time ? Why do you think, that others need your care ? How can you take care about others "little brains", if you can't take care about yours little brains ? And no, FTC is not kind of the authority for me.

Brad Dalton

08/18/2012 04:30 am

All the more reason to find another search engine. Its not healthy allowing Google to dominate search when so many people's livelihood depends on search traffic. The fact that its American owned and controlled is even worse because that's where most of the competition is. I understand why China wouldn't let Google dominate in that country and why they have their own search engine. Other countries should do the same. If you're site is not U.S owned, then you are at a disadvantage in Google's index.


08/18/2012 04:36 am

You're SEO. What do you know about the content production ? Google is in it since they bought Blogger in 2003. Why does it start to bother you just now ?

Brian H

08/18/2012 04:37 am

Spread the word that Google is biased and is favoring their advertisers. F Matt Cutts, Danny Sullivan, Frank Reid, Barry Schwartz and other Google poodles. Google is biased. Google updates results to maximize their earnings (Illegal in a huge way.) Support other search engines. After Panda Google got a 39% in crease on ads and after Penguin another 42%. In short, ads increased by 100% in a year by "improving quality" of Serps. But this pathetic loser, Barry is telling us it's raining, not Google pissing on our heads. How stupid do you think we are Barry? Find your lawmaker's tweeter /fb address and fire away. It works.


08/18/2012 04:50 am

Started to read it - what a BS ... Stop reading SEO BS - the first step to success.


08/18/2012 04:50 am

I produce content also, Just like Google does and I have been producing content longer than Google! However I also SEO for others. I know some SEO has knocked back your advances, so you got a chip on your shoulder about all SEO's. Maybe the SEO wasn't ready for a relationship. You need to move on and find another SEO to love!


08/18/2012 05:09 am

You see, this is the main SEO problem - you think you know something. But you're wrong as usual. So, better stick with content production. Time when you could sell temporary solutions to believers is ended and this is good.


08/18/2012 05:26 am

They can after they announce it to the world. You cannot say you're unbiased and then be biased for profit, that's illegal. Are you Matt Cutts? You are a POS, a liar, a fraud and a scam artist bigger than Ponzi. Thank god you have no kids, your genes will die with you.


08/18/2012 05:32 am

Don't forget to mention, that Google is responsible for the recession !!!

Laura Grace

08/18/2012 12:32 pm

The first organic search result for "directions" is usually Mapquest and google maps us often second.

Laura Grace

08/18/2012 12:39 pm

I am an SEO and I am glad that our jobs will become obsolete as the internet be comes more awesome. I will then get into user experience design and I will call it SEO.

Shivbhadra Gohil

08/18/2012 01:14 pm

I think all the SEOs should understand that SEO isn't only around Goolge, though it's hard but it's time to move on!


08/18/2012 01:59 pm

remove all backlinks to your site and you safe. It exactly what google want from us now.


08/18/2012 02:01 pm

totally unsense. why matt cutts need to worry, surely his website in some google white list. It was many spammers and newbies at this discussion place? ;-)

Reg Charie

08/18/2012 05:02 pm

Higher bounce rates *could* mean that they have changed the time on page factors too.

Reg Charie

08/18/2012 05:05 pm

This only happens when the search includes personal factors. I use a proxy (hidemyass) when I need to remove personal influences. I also see personal influences when i am logged out of Google.

Reg Charie

08/18/2012 05:27 pm

That's a 3 thumbs up Rick. I think the friends of MC have been told to not rock the boat or suffer banishment. Is that why none of them directly asks the pertinent questions? An example of this is when MC was asked about links, and he answered "Its premature to think links are completely obsolete." Of COURSE links are not obsolete. That is NOT the question. The questions should have been "What affect do links have on SERPs now that we have been told that they are not an "actionable metric"?" "Are links on non-relevant pages considered "spammy"?" To the guys saying that paid ads have taken most of the above the fold, I have to ask what resolution are you running? In 1920x1080 I see down to the 4th organic. On the right side ads I see down to "See your ad here"

Reg Charie

08/18/2012 05:33 pm

If you got hit with Penguin, doing all the above won't help. Penguin slammed sites based on anchor text used in non-relevant linking. It seems that the phrases that got slammed, stay slammed no matter what you do. I am in the middle of trying to re-establish a legitimate brick and mortar business's web presence and nothing worked. A new domain is being tried.

Reg Charie

08/18/2012 05:57 pm

Right on Terry. Google has been telling us that links are not a metric. They started giving clues in 2008. Last year they came right out and told us that links were not an "Actionable metric". As their text recognition processes started becoming more accurate they reduced their dependance on links. PageRank was a great idea, but only if everyone followed the principal that a link was earned, not placed. As a metric, PR failed miserably. A large segment of the links Google follows are pure garbage, placed by businesses or their assigns to influence the search results. Links need be built to direct traffic and to increase the information silos instead of trying to artificially influence a page. Aside from the general directories, there are a number of others which usually are local, industry, or niche related. Google wants RELEVANT links. IMO, Penguin was a recalculation of the effects of linking with all the non-relevant links removed, then returning to the no-effect state. Google also want SEO to be about designing for the visitor, so pay close attention to how visitors interact/react.

Orange County

08/18/2012 06:54 pm

I appreciate you Barry and thank you for your continued contributions

Reg Charie

08/18/2012 06:56 pm

I don't see it as increasing clicks on ads, but a reduction in the amount of links that Google follows. I DO see a problem with "people like Barry, Danny Sullivan and other Google shills". IMHO, it seems that the close "friends" of MC are told to not ask questions that would put a lot "theories" to rest. As far as I can see, Google does not lie. However, it does not tell the whole truth most of the time, and when it does, it is ignored because "it will kill SEO" (as we know it).

Reg Charie

08/18/2012 06:57 pm

It is not all PPC. The only thing that has changed is the shift to on-page SEO with the death of link building for SEO.


08/18/2012 07:11 pm

I too would love that. Unfortunately, Google is still using off page signals to determine quality. This I can tell based on the type of sites that are ranking well in Google. The only difference now, is that those off page signals have become almost impossible for the average Joe to get. You see, in Bing I rank on page 2 for a highly competitive term (for quite a few months). I assume this is due to my low bounce rate (Duane Forrester's comments about the algo lead me to believe this). My competitor "was" also ranking on page 2 in Bing for about a day for the same term - which I assume came to an end due to a high bounce rate. Why a high bounce rate? Because they don't have the content that visitors are expecting to see on their site. Instead, the site features content which was designed for the Panda algorithm (the hidden data is duplicate content). So to get to the real content, visitors must sign up by email. Based on my data (remember we both do the same thing) most people prefer to first see data and then sign up. This same site is in the #1 position in Google. Why? A lot of backlinks from very high authority sites, and a site which was designed to please the panda algorithm. So to rank well in a highly competitive vertical, you must pay a lot for SEO, have connections and design a site which pleases the algorithms - not necessarily humans. You see I build sites for humans and not for algorithms because algorithms change. I also refuse to spend my days and nights begging for high authority links. I also don't know if Google will be around forever so I'm not going to bet the bank on them. As much as people hate to admit it, Google is not as technically advanced as people would like them to be. Maybe they are more technically advanced than Facebook or Bing, but they are far from being capable of judging quality the same way a human would. Personally I don't think they will be able to do this even a decade from now because there are so many factors which must be taken into account.


08/18/2012 07:31 pm

My website has the same traffic and now only 1k... Why animals in the Google ZOO are so cruel ??? They should keep them away from us ;p


08/18/2012 08:04 pm

For the most part, I agree - I think Google's finally taking a great stand against people trying to replace good content with good "optimization." Still, they're taking a heavy hand against spam, and it does end up hurting legit site owners. I've seen a couple of friends' sites tank because the anchor text in their backlinks (which were built over a couple of years) was highly redundant. They weren't being spammy, just consistent...and it hurt them.


08/18/2012 08:16 pm

Built links = Spam Links should be earned, not built.

Orange County

08/18/2012 08:27 pm

Can't wait to see this day! Never thought I'd be cheer leading for Bing and Yahoo but that day has come.

Orange County

08/18/2012 08:30 pm

you are valued.


08/18/2012 08:48 pm

Well, this part of your comment: "but a reduction in the amount of links that Google follows" says it all - SEO is far from dead. SEO isn't dead, it's just harder to do. When Google can actually determine quality without off page signals, I will be the first to praise them for it. Authority links are crap IMO. How does one get high authority links? Who can get those high authority links? People that can bring money to the "high authority" site. IMO, high authority links are no different from paid links. Except with high authority links you don't personally pay for them. Instead the traffic that arrives to those sites pay for the link by converting into subscribers, purchasing a package that is being advertised or by clicking an ad. Say Britney Spears comes out with a new site, a high authority site will link to it just because it's owned by Britney Spears - regardless of quality. Let the average Joe build a fantastic site and you will find their chances of being linked to a lot slimmer than those of Britney Spears. But money makes the world go round. Why are fast food restaurants so much more successful than a mom & pop restaurant? Is it because the fast food restaurant has food that is better for your health? Are the ingredients that go into that food better? Or is it because of deep pockets for advertising?


08/18/2012 10:05 pm

Words of advice, if you are going to spend your time being a Google fanatic, at least defend them by staying on topic and sound credible. Was I referring to myself as the competition? Scroll up and you will see that I was referring to shopping comparison sites. Also, how would you know how much "free traffic" I get? FYI, I get a decent amount. I just don't get as much as my competitors which capitalize on the vulnerabilities of Google to get it.


08/18/2012 11:39 pm

Its all about quality, lol.

Barry Schwartz

08/19/2012 02:52 am

Where do I say buy ads? Where do I kiss Google's butt? I don't understand?

Barry Schwartz

08/19/2012 02:54 am

It is so funny how both Googler haters and Googler lovers are both furious with me about this post. Can't make anyone happy.

Webstats Art

08/19/2012 03:39 am

I prefer this blog to Danny Sullivan's because Barry does not spend enormous amounts of time defending google but I don't know if Barry has an agenda. Search Engine Land really sucks these days!

Atul Mittal

08/19/2012 04:43 am

Eagerly waiting for the next Penguin update and somehow prepared for it.

Cj Hallock

08/19/2012 04:50 am

My thoughts ... 75% Social 25% Old School SEO ... I could be wrong

Jail Matt Cutts

08/19/2012 07:58 am

Matt Cutts is the Charles Ponzi and Bernie Maddof of Search. He and other Googlers should be jailed for rigging search results for profit while advertising them as unbiased.


08/19/2012 10:03 am

It's users and customers that need to use another search engine, number one on bing gets me 1 visitor a day number one on google used to send me about 80

Shivbhadra Gohil

08/19/2012 10:16 am

yup, that's right too...


08/19/2012 11:13 am

Take a shelter Barry :-) People think that you and Danny are secret agents of Google. Both sides are paranoid and you're on the fire line.


08/19/2012 11:58 am

it's easy to write this kind of articles when you are one call away from restoring your SERP position no matter how big Penguin hits you. And SEO RT certainly is friend of MC. Otherwise they would be on page 50 for major keywords just for openly selling links (forget about tanking PR, that's worthless parameter). So, making hype and pumping up MC's words and scaring webmasters is the thing they live from.

Barry Schwartz

08/19/2012 12:18 pm

My traffic took a pretty big dive for selling links.


08/19/2012 12:39 pm

Let me explain better Barry. Firstly :: I didn't write that you said we should buy ads. I was looking into the future when all that is open to us is to buy ads, I was saying why would we bother coming to blogs like this when adwords is our only option. This thread is no longer about what Matt did or did not say at SES. What you are seeing here is frustration that has boiled over from all the underhanded stuff Google has done this year. I am not talking about Pandas and Penguins here I am talking about Google shopping moving to a paid model. The above the fold experience becoming all paid. Things like Google moving away from host crowding, making serps so terrible that we are forced to move to an adwords model. ( who the F wants to see pizza places in Seattle when they search for "European road maps" ?) Secondly :: I didn't say you were a Google butt kisser. I am saying that you and especially Danny are perceived to have a cosy relationship with Matt Cutts In the past that was a benefit for you AND FOR US! because it meant sometimes we got a better low down on what Google are doing, However that cosy relationship that especially Danny seems to have might come back and bite him on the proverbial. What we want from our industry leaders is that they ask the HARD questions. Questions like "WTF are you doing Matt, Host crowding was way better than the shit you are putting up now? Is Google really that hard up for a dollar that they need to force 9 of the 10 people who were on the front page to use adwords?" The SEO community is crying out for some real leadership in this. Have you noticed that Comments by you and Matt are getting voted down? That is because the community is tired of all this. If Google wants to turn into and Ad Engine and the only SEO open to us is Adwords, then we don't need blogs like yours and Danny's any more. There probably isn't anything you or Danny can do about the direction Google has decided to go in. However you could probably empathise with us a little more. As people have said all the instability in the serps has probably been a benefit to you and Danny as people are desperate for answers. However that traffic boost will only be fleeting if our industry is finally destroyed. A bit melodramatic but you get my gist?

Barry Schwartz

08/19/2012 12:50 pm

I thought I did empathize with you. I thought I was a voice for the community. I guess I was wrong.

PM Fiorini

08/19/2012 12:56 pm

The bottom line is this: These recent updates (Penguin, Panda) have made Google an unreliable source of traffic and leads. Thus, I am recommending to my clients is to move away from the "Google Business Model". I am suggesting clients to spend more monies in things like Display Advertising, Re-targeting, Radio & TV - basically anything but Google. Yes, there will be some AdWords PPC, but I don't see those budgets increasing or changing much. These updates are forcing small businesses (like my clients) to search and obtain traffic from sources other than Google. The reason I am advising clients in this manner is that businesses do not like uncertainty, and that is what all these updates are causing. These updates whether they be "jarring" or "jolting" or whatever is bad for business in general. I think all of us have to begin changing our mindset. Google is not the only source of traffic and leads to website. There are alternatives as mentioned above, but I do not have all the answers. Interestingly, I see these aggressive "webspam" updates as not such a good or particularly smart business move for Google (note that I see some webspam updates as important to any search engine, but these Panda & Penguin updates are a bit way over the top). Yes, initially "G"'s PPC ad revenue will increase (obviously) in the short term, but I see these updates as a long term strategic failure. Given all these updates, for small biz to survive (and it will), Google is forcing us to come up with alternative *reliable* ways to generate traffic (i.e., traffic that is NOT Google related). The end result is businesses will rely less on Google for traffic, thus necessarily making Google become more and more irrelevant over time. This won't happen tomorrow, or the next day, or even a year from now, but that is certainly the way things are going as I see it. In 1997, small biz survived without Google. In 2012, small biz can survive without Google as well. Google should only be a very small part of a given business model. It's a change in mindset - I know it's difficult, as I am struggling with this every day, but it has to be done.


08/19/2012 01:05 pm

Yeah Barry sorry but you are wrong, the community wants harder questions asked we want 60 minutes not E! News. We want Google held to a really hot spot light. Questions like WTF have you made a mess of the SERPS, Killed the above the fold experience but have released the first upgrade to adwords in years? Matt what is your personal stake in Google? How many shares do you own? That way if he has a few mill we know to take what he says with a grain of salt. Because he is just trying to drive the value of his stake up. We no longer trust him or even care what he has to say. If he has 0 stake then great maybe he hasn't been corrupted. Either way the Matt Cutts brand and that is what he is a brand is starting to look poisonous. (my questions above are from a non professional I am sure you guys could think up better ones)

Barry Schwartz

08/19/2012 01:16 pm

You know I report the stuff from the forums. I don't do in depth stuff. Never have. This is my style. Aaron Wall does a nice job of that.

Will Spencer

08/19/2012 01:49 pm

FU, it does no good to ask Google serious questions -- Google doesn't answer them. You can grill Matt Cutts until he walks away from you and you'll never hear a straight answer from him. You can't blame Barry, Danny, etc... for failing to accomplish the impossible. It's fucking impossible, yannow?

Will Spencer

08/19/2012 02:07 pm

I can't stand the stupid wallpaper, but I've made Bing the search option for my Firefox and I am very happy with the quality of the search results. I only load Google now to use the calculator. :D


08/19/2012 02:43 pm

Maybe you need evaluate what you're doing instead of defending it. For starters, they're not furious with the post. They're furious with the general apathy being shown by you (and others). This post is just a symptom.


08/19/2012 02:44 pm

Belittling what a lot of people are saying doesn't always make you right. Sometimes it makes you a fool.

Barry Schwartz

08/19/2012 02:45 pm

Where? Where am I taking sides.


08/19/2012 02:46 pm

You've got some boneheaded idea that 'real content' has anything to do with ranking in Google's algorithm? Where the heck did you dream that one up. I've certainly never seen any evidence of it.


08/19/2012 02:47 pm

You're a loser for using the "if both sides attack em I must be doing something right" logical fallacy

Barry Schwartz

08/19/2012 02:50 pm

What did I do wrong? Coming from you, this is insulting.


08/19/2012 02:52 pm

Ok, ok ... Barry is responsible too ... Do we need to call to lawmakers again to update the information ?? ))


08/19/2012 02:54 pm

Then you're a fucking simpleton. I've seen numerous white hat sites get hammered, including my own.

Barry Schwartz

08/19/2012 02:56 pm

And I do care, I've written about this dozens of times. Here are two:


08/19/2012 03:14 pm

Think about those feel who have never sold links and who are getting slammed by Penguin because people have naturally linked to them, thus killing their site. In order to cease the insanity, one has to obtain a court order to notify the offenders to cease and desist (when they are dark and provide zero contact info) or they have to pay to have the links removed. There are perhaps millions of linkbacks to Google that have nothing to do with search engine content/subject matter. Why doesn't Google penalize Google?


08/19/2012 03:27 pm

@rustybrick: I think you do a nice job in reporting, Barry. I think that most understand that you have a particular style, too. But I also agree with Alan's comments. I've watched this thread build since you first posted it; I saw the update and how words were parsed by the Googlebot in order to explain away the original comments. What we're seeing is a lot of venting; and sad as it may be, there is comfort to be found in knowing that others are having the same experience, that they feel the same frustration. I think that because Google in a huge way controls the success and failure of online businesses that when they demote a site, they need to provide a reason as to why. One of our US senators actually requested this from them. Sure, some would argue that a business shouldn't be dependent upon Google, but logic and reality is that they are the #1 search. When a site is impacted by them, whether positively or negatively, bottom line is in turn impacted.

PM Fiorini

08/19/2012 03:32 pm

Well than why the hell should we read your f***** blog? We need leaders - not butt kissers. You have the access to Cutts to ask the hard and difficult questions - not us

Barry Schwartz

08/19/2012 03:43 pm

Don't read. This is my notebook.


08/19/2012 04:28 pm

I have been posting my theories on Webmasterworld but Tedster shoots them down and defends Google at any cost. I am sick and tired, we need impartial forums not Matt Cutts clones defending Google.


08/19/2012 05:43 pm

Tedster did not do enough. WW became totally useless.


08/19/2012 06:12 pm

Maybe, but you eventually recovered although your links are still there. Ton of sites were killed by Panda for allegedly selling links and never recovered although they removed those allegedly sold links. People were punished just for exchanging links and I laugh when John Mueller (who is a nice guy) says "don't exchange or sell links". It doesn't apply to everybody John, you should know it...

Larry Olson

08/19/2012 06:14 pm

I already feel maximally hurt by the google spam crusade of the last year, I doubt this one will be that much more damaging. Still, I imagine that scene from Star Trek when Kirk is stuck underground by Khan. "GOOOOOOOOGLE!"

Barry Schwartz

08/19/2012 06:18 pm

It does apply to me. I did not recover.


08/19/2012 06:22 pm

Alan, you're perfect example of the modern SEO community. You're earning by selling so called SEO service, you talk a lot, you want personal attention, you want precise answers asking stupid questions, you want this and that ... you WANT !!! But finally it appears, that you're non professional ... LOL )) Just for your guide - the so called SEO community is 0,00001% of all Google users. Think about it next time you'll ask questions to Google and its employees.


08/19/2012 06:27 pm

Panda has nothing to do with links. Google it at least, before flood )

Miller Brew

08/19/2012 08:00 pm

If Google is successful at trying to transition to a pure 'paid' search which they are obviously trying to do, then they will be removed from schools and colleges. Microsoft Bing will soon be the new big dog in search. In 5 years Bing will be the leader in search. I see the end is coming for Google.

Miller Brew

08/19/2012 08:03 pm

also, on an unrelated note. This website is kind of clunky and the comment section kind of sucks. If Google ranked websites around usability, then this site should not rank at all. Too much spammy ads and the sidebar sucks. And this comment box is horrible.


08/19/2012 08:29 pm

Well, you're a sheep, if you need leader. In this case it's a big question who is a butt kisser ))


08/19/2012 09:19 pm

If you want impartial, Jennifer and Arron are the only ones to offer that. As for Tedster, I don't spend much time on that forum (I only visited the site a couple of time due to Barry's links). When it comes to Google, there are consequences for voicing your "opinion" too loud. See this link for more details: So in general, Tedster along with many others might be afraid that the big bad wolf will come and blow their house down for too many opinions without enough justification behind :) It could also be that they are trying to act impartial towards Google, or maybe they don't want to bite the hand that feeds them?

Jay Wylie

08/19/2012 09:22 pm

because if joe bloggs who owns some basic business (say washer machine repairs, or car valeting business) will totally get loads of people linking to them yeah? No.


08/19/2012 09:40 pm

So you would prefer google to turn into all ads? If you bothered to read I am not talking about updates to the index (ie penguin and panda) I am talking about above the fold experience and Google turning into an ad engine. I am sure the other 99.99999% Google users would be happy to just click on ads when looking for a website. Anti you sound like a jaded lover and as I said it is time to get over the SEO who broke your heart. If you invest your prodigious energy into finding another SEO to love you may just find happiness.


08/19/2012 10:19 pm

I say having no competition makes them do bad, because they have no fear of loosing their business to the competitor


08/19/2012 11:06 pm

Barry, what is the point of having a MOD label if you are going to let children behave like this?

Barry Schwartz

08/19/2012 11:21 pm

I remove the pure spam.

Eren Mckay

08/19/2012 11:24 pm

@rustybrick:disqus I think you should delete the comment that called @twitter-28441158:disqus a hoe since this is extremely offensive and rude and she is NOT a hoe.


08/19/2012 11:30 pm

You probably won't care, but tons of respect just went out the window if you think leaving comments like this up is okay for any reason.

Barry Schwartz

08/19/2012 11:41 pm

When I get to a computer I'll check. 300+ comments, 200 or so when I was on a flight. Barry Schwartz Sent from iOS 6

Barry Schwartz

08/19/2012 11:48 pm

@a4e1622ded26eaeeab1974d7a74c331a:disqus I don't see that comment. Do you have a link to it? Maybe it had so many minuses it was removed?

Barry Schwartz

08/19/2012 11:50 pm

Found it, it is gone.

Barry Schwartz

08/19/2012 11:50 pm

found it, removed it. sorry...


08/19/2012 11:52 pm

And the funny thing is that Joe's "artificial links" are different from those that build links on sites that Google sees as reputable... Sites that Google deems reputable because they are backed by millions of dollars. Now Joe Shmoe is unable to level the playing field against those companies, yet multi million dollar companies are still able to propel themselves to the top with artificial links form, cough, cough "quality sites" - give me a break. It's like people really need Google to help them find Facebook and Twitter LOL.

PM Fiorini

08/19/2012 11:53 pm

@da83ddbe81e37e166b4c71448c4de4ab:disqus Bro, no one is talking about "sheep" except you - maybe you are thinking when you humped sheep in college because no chick would sleep with you - I don't know - I'm not responsible for you being a loser. But, what I am talking about is the amazing silence from "leaders in our industry" asking Google tough questions about these bogus "updates" to clean up "webspam" that seems to only hurt small biz. And, I'm not only talking about e-commerce sites, I am talking about legitimate local businesses like real-estate, etc. We need our industry leaders to demand some real unequivocal answers about what Google will allow and not allow going forward, etc. This Penguin update impacts a whole bunch of small businesses that are losing money, can't afford AdWords, and are possibly going out of business in this recession. Who is standing up for them? No one. Regrettably, this is nothing of interest this blog has to offer except the same stuff that I can read from Cutt's blog or anywhere else.


08/20/2012 12:52 am

I didn't mention 'taking sides'. That's not what this is about - don't believe either the FU's or the people kissing your ass here saying to ingore the naysayers. It's about some hard hitting journalism or somebody at least asking the hard hitting questions. MC was asked when the next penguin update would be. He didn't answer the question, he responded with something else. People went nuts. So you published a clarification from him - and the clarification didn't answer the question either! Guess what - everyone noticed the evasion except apparently the people reporting on this. The evasion of the question is what we've had for years now. It's not this story, it's the culmination of dozens of similiar stories through the years. If you'd have thrown a calendar at MC and said "You didn't answer the question, pick a date or admit you won't answer", you'd have the most widely read blog in the SEO community. A Geraldo-style porn stache wouldn't go astray either, though maybe that's just me.

Barry Schwartz

08/20/2012 01:00 am

Matt doesn't know when the next Penguin update will be. Heck, I play the cat and mouse game with them all the time about this stuff. I try, I try hard, see Google has come a really long way in terms of communication. Can it be better? Of course, but look back 5 years ago. Huge difference. Danny, myself and yes, Matt have helped with that. But mostly Danny and Matt.


08/20/2012 02:55 am

Alan, stop talking and start working. Be professional. Otherwise you sound like a soccer fans - all of them know what the coach should do.


08/20/2012 03:13 am

Are you commie or religion guy ? These people usually can't create anything by themselves and pretend they do care about small people/businesses. This is their business - to care. It's so easy to care of anyone you never saw, isn't it ? Oh, pardon ... you're SEO ... ok, take care of small businesses, what else can you do now ))


08/20/2012 05:54 am

Is G professional?


08/20/2012 06:00 am

And Anti like I said you sound like a jaded lover. Some SEO in your past has hurt you deeply. The SEO probably didn't realize you had these feelings for him and never reciprocated your love? You need to move on, being negative towards all SEO's is not going to help you find love again! Go on get out there and find a new SEO that presses your buttons again. One who may return your affections.


08/20/2012 06:37 am

Tedster looks like a Google plant, along with Netmeg. They are defending Google at any cost.

descenso del sella

08/20/2012 09:55 am

Search results are getting worst with each update. Lots of outdated and spammy sites are on top for many terms. I don't think this update will fix that,


08/20/2012 09:59 am

Their update should level the playing field, I hope. So in balance, an authoritative website amongst a niche market would have the same link juice as an authoritative website in a FMCG market, for example. Eg - If Coke's website linked to a lesser known brand of soft drink (OK, will never happen, but an example), the 'new drink' would have one of the most authoritative links possible in its industry. Now, if the most authoratitive website for vintage kitchen ware linked to a tiny company just entering that niche market - it should be considered the same value link as Coke linking to 'New Drink'. Even though, in comparison to Coke's website, the Vintage Kitchen Ware website could have far less authority or page rank etc. Like you say, how can a small, niche website gain such high authority links if the nature of their business simply doesn't have these relevant websites available... other than their own competitors of course. This is relative relevance. I want to see this, it would level the playing field for all SEOs.

Alabama SEO

08/20/2012 11:56 am

Tedster is prolly on Google's whitelist and /or payroll. No one can be so stupid not to see. He keeps yapping trying to cover up for Google with nonsense. His real name is Ted Ulle and being "friends" with Matt Cutts helps him sell his SEO services.


08/20/2012 12:07 pm

What communication you loser? How do you they're telling the truth? The fact that our traffic is down by a lot and corresponds with their massive increase in profits /ad clicks shows that they are lying through their teeth. Do you have a brain? What good are lies when you're being ripped off?


08/20/2012 12:08 pm

If 60% people are hurt then who gained the traffic.No doubt that total search traffic is not affected by all these google algo. Only websites are affected.So who gained the traffic.Nobody is talking about those gainer.

Barry Schwartz

08/20/2012 12:15 pm

Why don't you do something to help others instead of worrying about yourself.


08/20/2012 12:43 pm

Adwords, Google is shifting our traffic to ads---------illegally and Barry & Co are not asking the right questions.

Barry Schwartz

08/20/2012 12:48 pm

You ask them. You do something instead of just complain. If you can do a better job, I am sure people would read your stuff.


08/20/2012 12:54 pm

If MC doesn't know when the next update will be, then why do we have a whole article AND a rebuttal from MC? Google doesn't answer a direct question (and if that's not offensive enought, they actually purport to answer the question) and it gets reported AND warrants a rebuttal from MC? That's what people are getting upset about. Because it's not a one-time thing, it's a long term trend. I can't tell you how much I disagree with your comment that communication by Google is better than it was 5 years ago. Rather than defending yourself against personal attacks from this post, consider instead if your readers are pointing out an underlying problem. You *are* reporting sweeit-nothings from Google (despite your assertations otherwise, you just did with this article). Of course that's not because of the personal reasons being thrown about here - but it *is* happening nonetheless. The idea that people are upset with the reporting has been in the community for a while now. That's the real story here. And you're not at fault specifically, you just happened to serve as the flashpoint. So ignore the blame, but don't ignore the sentiment. Next post for our enjoyment: "MC continues to refuse to answer questions, webmaster community furious".

Barry Schwartz

08/20/2012 12:57 pm

If you don't think communication has improved in the past five years then why should I value any of your other comments? This is my personal blog. I keep notes here. Read them if you like them or don't.


08/20/2012 02:47 pm

Hm, what's the difference ? Do you mean, that we can be unprofessional, if G can ?


08/20/2012 02:51 pm

No, it shows that nobody is interested in your website except you and your relatives.


08/20/2012 03:07 pm

You should value my comments because I'm parroting what thousands of your readers are thinking. And I'm doing it without attacking you. But whatever, I'm not flogging web services as you are then pretending I'm not. Or accepting press passes and then claiming it's only for your 'personal notes'. Or getting personal responses from Matt Cutts and then publishing them under the guise of 'personal notes' only. You think Matt Cutts responded to you on a personal basis, just for your notes? Seriously, you look like a liar when you claim that. You're pissing off your readers by treating everything as a personal attack (or ignoring the ones that are actual personal attacks) and challenging them on their concerns, rather than trying to appreciate the concerns or understand the reasoning for the concerns. If you're challenging people not to read what you've written, that's very likely what you're going to get.

Barry Schwartz

08/20/2012 03:20 pm

Then we disagree.

Eren Mckay

08/20/2012 05:15 pm

Thanks so much for removing it @rustybrick:disqus

Put Panda Back in the Cage

08/20/2012 05:54 pm

I'm hate the control Goggle has over us. I have a ligit business, don't send out spam and don't use black hat tricks. I worked very hard for several years folloing the rules as I knew them and gradually built my home based business into a living wage. Then Panda/Penguin came along and knocked the crap out of most of my sites for whatever reason, Business has fallen off dramtically and now I'm facing real finacial hardships. This is not right. When Google cuases me to loose my house because of their "improvments" they are hurting real people. But they don'tr give a flying "F". I hate them, I hate them , I wish they would just go away or at least tell us what the rules are. Talk about black hat, all they do is take a cloak an dagger approach to all their friggin updates. Now that's black hat. They drained me dry with their damn paid ads. I couldn't handle it. Greedy bastards.

Joshua Cabe Johnson

08/20/2012 07:19 pm

Yup, a bunch of suck ups for sure. Where's the tipping point where the general public has had enough of Google's BS and moves over to Bing? Common already... Google = Move the Public with Fear so that we can increase our sales! What a bunch of ass-wipes!

Kunle Campbell -Fuzz One Media

08/20/2012 09:32 pm

I don't know what many folks (particularly SEO peeps) are going on about how they are fed up with Google and waiting for people to switch to Bing?!? Because Google all of a sudden doesn't seem to work with your dodgy 'SEO' techniques doesn't mean it does not work well for the average searcher.

Justin Credible

08/21/2012 12:32 am

Small businesses dont need social media Google! They don't need fresh content either unless they change their business, so don't penalize them for this. Search results were great before the update - do you actually think people would pay thousands of dollars for SEO to get to the top of search results if their businesses were crap? NO! This was the only way to do it. They have the money to do it because they have a good business. On another note, I have noticed that the performance of all of my paid accounts has dropped dramatically since the update. Perhaps people are not happy with Google anymore???? You should listen to the feedback, or your future could be shattered just like the lives of the thousands of businesses you shattered.

Miranda Miller

08/21/2012 01:25 am

Thank you for the vote of confidence in my not-hoe-iness, Eren, and to you Barry for removing it :) Interesting reading all the comments, about 100 more since I last read them!


08/21/2012 01:32 am

If the true intent of Penguin is to mitigate web spam and improve the quality of content in the results, Matt Cutts should be fired and tarred and feathered. The top 10 stack of millions of results are now monopolized by few large companies, and crappy content poor sites. The only thing that has come out of this is legitimate hard working businesses being put out of business, and a new industry of 'negative SEO' coming into existence, which does nothing but INCREASE webspam. It isn't JUST black hatters getting destroyed. The methods GOOGLE taught us were once kosher are now all the sudden illegal and warrant the death sentence. They used to tell us that anchor text was a practical way to see what something is linking to, then they penalize you for doing it, after following their methods. I wonder if there is a class action in the works, since literally millions of people have been affected, it could wake up some money hungry lawyer to find some little law to sue them over.


08/21/2012 07:21 am



08/21/2012 11:42 am

@diberry , talking about tedstar. The guy is a Google plant no doubt. The jerk actually suspended my posting rights because of my anti Google sentiments and factual posts... (i was a long standing member with WMW since 2002 with more then 700 posts)...


08/21/2012 11:52 am

ditto to every word!!


08/21/2012 12:00 pm

You sound like one hell of a fanatic Google brown nose loser. It is because of idiot jerks like you the web looks the way it is right now. You have to be really dumb, inexperienced or on Google's pay roll to defend their questionable actions the way you do...

Spybubble Русский

08/21/2012 12:47 pm

name calling is never a good idea, but i understand the frustration, nobody really knows what to do now to comply with an algo that sure looks more and more to benefit google ads instead of users, moreover, the algo changes so often with now radical moves that what is ok one day becomes a penalty the next day.. where i am from we say don't change the rules in the middle of the game..

Reg Charie

08/21/2012 05:28 pm

@milania:disqus I don't think Penguin is as much about those that sold links as it is about non-relevant linking. I have one site that builds totally organic links and it did not receive a penalty. Getting rid of a Penguin penalty is tough. It seems that it will even follow a move to a new domain name, if linked from the old domain. Google does penalize itself. Take a look in MajesticSEO at Google's stats. In the last month they have lost over 500,000,000 links and 9,694,027,117 overall.


08/21/2012 07:24 pm

In my opinion, if you look at Google over the long term, they came into the market with a strategy of getting their search brand known as the easiest and most user friendly of all. Top organic ranking depended on the right meta and header tags with proper formatting. Once that objective was reached, they started changing slowly, incrementally, into a platform designed now to monopolise all ecommerce with all their "value-added" services. They've led the masses into using their search, then PPC, then gmail, maps, Chrome, youtube, android, and the list goes on. I'm no conspiracy nut, but I do study history. Consider the pattern they're following. They have a team of experts, (aka: Stepford Shills), repeating Google talking points. Those points revolve around the mantra that everything is fine and it's all about "fairness", "leveling the playing field" and, "We're just reading your email so we can give you more relevant search results". Now, combine that with a corporate culture that's so progressive they make Saul Alinsky look to be right of Thomas Sowell and suddenly Google doesn't appear so benignant. I'm not saying the approach bobbob12345 is correct, specifically, but I do believe he is on to something. If Google keeps going like they have been, I would not be surprised to see the Sherman Antitrust Act come into play like it did with Alcoa or even Microsoft. In Alcoa, the decision was based on the judge's opinion that Congress does not “condone good trusts and condemn bad ones, it forbad all”. I just hope sometime soon, (nothing will happen between now and November), someone in the DoJ or Congress starts to take a hard look at where Google is already. And if you don't agree with me then you are worse than Larry Page.

Tyler Herrick

08/21/2012 08:34 pm

Thanks for the clarification Matt. I love you and Google. I am an SEO but I do not use black hat tactics or buy links like many whining babies here.


08/22/2012 05:31 am

A search engine that rewards advertisers who offer the best value, not those with the biggest budget. Google should be afraid. Very afraid:


08/22/2012 05:48 am

I dnt know why Google and Matt Cutts playing this game with us... They just want more and more $$$$$ from adword and that's why they just doing they doing this cheap things... Its better for if they just announce that from now Google only display paid Ads on first 10 pages. and you need to pay compulsory if you want your website in Google Search Result... All Money Game is going on...


08/22/2012 05:49 am

I dnt know why Google and Matt Cutts playing this game with us... They just want more and more $$$$$ from adword and that's why they doing this cheap things... Its better for if they just announce that from now Google only display paid Ads on first 10 pages. and you need to pay compulsory if you want your website in Google Search Result...


08/22/2012 06:04 am

And good luck trying to comply with Adword's policies. Once they ban you, you're done for. It's a life ban even if advertisers did something that Google never objected to until 5 years later. They go all the way back and say nope, you violated our policy that wasnt even around then so you get a life ban. hahaha, they really are POS. I hope the next search engine sends them out of business.

Anthony Marquez

08/22/2012 07:24 am

When Google announcements happen, everyone goes into unprecedented tension, especially for small businesses. Is it lack of support or documentation from Google?

HTML Blogging . com

08/22/2012 08:46 am

I really afraid for my website.


08/23/2012 01:43 am

@Anti-SEO WMW is no doubt useless. It is now full of Jerks like you.


08/23/2012 01:44 am

you bet!

Miller & Zois, LLC

08/23/2012 04:32 pm

Not to take anything away from the guy but I find the hero workship of Cutts annoying. He has the answers - because he has the answers in the back of the book - and gives out little pieces of them that are largely meaningless. I would not go build a statute of the guy.

Samuel Miles

08/24/2012 01:17 am

Google rose to the number one search engine worldwide, based on its non-commercial, business-focused search results. The introduction of Google Penguin provides Page-One, results of pay per click-classified advertising search results, with mostly Google owned, "YouTube" video search results. We will have to go back to AOL and Yahoo for accurate business query search results. I haven't seen a screw up like this since Coca Cola tried to replace it's Classic Coke entirely with a Pepsi like product called New Coke, failed miserably and was forced by the market place to bring Classic Coke back. Due respect to Pepsi and New Coke, just an example of a major, business blunder, much like Google Penguin.


08/24/2012 06:21 pm

It's very sad that Google decreases a quality of a search with such updates. And there is no even a possibility to tell an opinion of webmster to Google. Noone needs it :(


08/24/2012 07:09 pm

How could it be any bigger? It already f*#ked over 65% of all webmasters. Google is evil and a bully.

Backlinks Wiz

08/27/2012 03:33 am

only thing left now looks like digging deep in your own pocket and paying for adwords. or go broke


08/28/2012 08:52 pm

i think it illegal to be anti-seo guy here, this website not for trolls.

Reg Charie

08/30/2012 05:18 pm

@PM Fiorini I think you will find the reason the small businesses got hit is that the large guys do not need to go out and linkbuild. The small guys THINK they do in order to compete and Google caught them at it.

Reg Charie

08/30/2012 05:52 pm

Communications from Google have increased but transparency has fallen to an all time low. If a lot of people are telling you that you have a problem, get off your high horse and listen. (Just saying :)) It is far better to have some honest folks saying hard things that it would be to have everyone pat you on the back for a "good" job and never return. If MC was sworn to "Tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth", he would be in for Perjury. One example, (Also a prime example of Danny Sullivan's seeming ignorance of the real question.), was when DS was asking MC (at SMX 2012), "Danny Sullivan, Search Engine Land’s Editor-In-Chief, asked a series of link-related questions that led the conversation through topics like no-followed links, affiliate links, paid links and more." He went through all of this without asking if their report of PageRank being no longer an "actionable" metric meant that links were not going to affect search results. One pertinent question was: "For a few years now, some SEO insiders have suggested that social signals are replacing links as a quality signal for Google’s ranking algorithm — and that refrain has become a bit more common, I’d say, in the wake of the Panda and Penguin updates." and MC answered "that it’s much too soon to say that links are dead" That was NOT the answer to the question. Not the whole truth. OF COURSE links are not dead. There are many uses outside of SEO. However, Google tells us that they ARE dead in regards to influencing search results.


08/30/2012 07:59 pm

Google feel controlling the internet, and they hate to send you any traffic, they will prefer to keep all people in youtube, google+ maybe Google products. they want to be the internet and everything on the internet, and believe me it will destroy them faster than you think.


08/31/2012 01:18 am

Matt Cutts is working hard as Google Spokesman to become one of the most hated men on the internet. Kill the messenger...

Jimmy Cogan

08/31/2012 12:14 pm

After this update of penguin and panda no wonder how big will be the next one as this one hits many people ass in one time and I think the next mammal will be dolphin and they give a name of DOLPHIN UPDATE lol

Andy B

09/05/2012 01:34 am

I've not paid attention to SEO for some time, call me 'out of the loop' but after Panda I just saw the whole thing as futile, and here is why: As long as Google has a search monopoly they are going to have to deal with SEO fraud, but they also have to recognise the reality of an SEO industry, which they did some time ago by introducing Google Webmaster. Most of that industry follows what they advise and mostly plays by the rules, and are not part of the so-called 'money list' targeted by aggressive and cheating SEOs. So, Google goes after them with these radical updates and the other 90% of us in the industry are collateral damage, as is the user for whom good sites have disappeared out of the results for failing on a technicality. My sites are one such example. And it brings me to the point ' you just cant judge quality with an algorithm, let the human eye determine in seconds what takes an engineer hours and hours to program, use Facebook like, Google + etc for a far more realistic, holistic, non manipulative determination of what the public think is best for their needs'. You don't need to get bogged down in SEO updates and what Matt Cutts said, in order to figure that out, which is why I've given up until such time as Google sees the light on this.

Lyndon NA

09/06/2012 07:45 am

Sorry - but if you cannot tell the difference between Spammy Footers and Footer placed SiteNavs/User-focus-links ....

Anirudh Bahadur

09/10/2012 06:29 pm

You have nothing to fear if you have nothing to hide! :) :D

jimmy cogan

09/12/2012 05:53 am

I am completely agreed with mark about the next update of google animals lol


09/19/2012 09:02 am

Google has all the powers to manipulate webmasters here and there. Let us see what happens in next penguin update especially for my blogger HVAC .

David Frankk

09/27/2012 05:26 am

Yikes. So the penguin isn't out yet, and I am already nervous. Such is the power of Google. Internet market research will become more and more important and the ones who are able to do more with less, will be the winners.

Penguin Slap

09/30/2012 02:05 pm

Got me on Friday 9/27...Domain is not an EMD - 50% drop in traffic. I do however have some exact match text links pointing to my site, these seem to have gotten hit


10/04/2012 06:59 am

I have to repost this for everyone ->

Spark Junction

10/08/2012 02:57 pm

Big or profound? It has already happened and we didn't fee a thing. We would appreciate it if we could find out at least several months later what the "approximate ingredients" of one particular update were... in order to better understand what "quality" means to Google nowadays...


10/15/2012 09:51 pm

I really don't think there's anything to worry about with these updates. I just started blogging at the beginning of this year, started my current site about six months ago and already had it up to a pagerank of 3 in a couple months without even knowing what SEO was for most of that time. My advice - stop worrying about SEO so much. Even if you're just writing meaningless articles for the sake of filling your blog with content, you can still get a decent rank pretty quick without worrying about buying backlinks and making keywords a top priority. The Yoast SEO plugin for WP does a perfect job - it doesn't over-do it and all you have to do is fill in the keyword, title and short description. Sorry if I sound rant-ey... that's just my take on things. Edit: I'm not ranking as well in Bing, but that doesn't matter too much. lol

John Creaty

10/16/2012 06:55 am

"Google is getting more serious about buying and selling links" - says Matt Cutts, then what is Adwords about. Are they doing free service to place a link at the top of SERP..


10/18/2012 07:29 am



10/29/2012 04:00 pm

why google not banning youtube? Youtube videos now displayed on almost any adult search. Surely no relevancy links here. But google ban webmasters for things which Google Inc practice all the time on their own properties (ads above fold, link quality, relevancy), etc. Clear case of double morality!


04/19/2013 06:12 pm

Yup. I discuss the Google business model a little more in depth in an audio interview you can find here: as a publicly traded company Google will keep squeezing revenue out of their famous SERPs until they kill the golden goose, by then they hope that search will be irrelevant and they will have found something new to make money on.

Juan Manuel Garrido

06/03/2013 03:44 am

Belive me, this update is a joke. Try to search for "payday loans" and tell me waht you see.

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