A tip to SEOs: if you are asking for questions, then you should stop offering your services.

Vygantas, so you disagree with me.

I kind agree with Vygantas on this one (sorry Barry). If I were Mike I would be upset too, this is why sometimes we are profiled as criminals.

No, there is nothing wrong for SEOs to ask other SEOs for advice, imo.

The way this SEO did it, was bad. Fred and Vygantas, you never asked others for a second opinion?

I agree Barry, there's nothing wrong with appealing to the community for help, that's how we all learn. I would suggest that anyone who is arrogant enough to think they don't need to ask questions should be the one revoking their services.

As you pointed out the problem here is that 'Gary' has essentially admitted he has just robbed five grand from someone despite knowing full well he can't help; thus painting himself in a crooked and fairly incompetant light.

Asking other people for help can only make you stronger. Those that do not ask for help shouldn't be in the industry as they may miss out on some critical information.

This isn't a rant or anything but it's aimed at: Vygantas.

With regards to the main topic; the guy just needs to be more confident in the services he offers! Him asking for advice was a very good thing in my eyes, but the way he said that it probably won't work was just a lack of confidence.

There's nothing wrong with professionals turning to professionals for advice on a case. Think about doctor consults. In fact, I'm glad to know that my doctor's looking for additional ideas - I know he's human and doesn't know everything.

What you *don't* want is for your doctor to call in his fellow Hippocratic buddies while you're still in the room and start a conversation with, "well I know xyz won't work and he'll probably die, but I get a huge kickback from Pharmacorp if I prescribe him these - do you think it might work?"

I think we should cut Gary a bit of slack here. It wouldn't be the first time someone has stated that getting a sites rankings back looks pretty hopeless only to find out that they ended up getting them back.

Also this could just be a case of thinking out loud on Gary's part.

Personally I am up front with my clients and let them know if I think it is hopeless before I start doing the work. While this may cause you some business, in the long run I think this is better than having a large number of unsatisfied customers.

I think this also shows the need in the SEO community for a private forum where only SEO/SEM consults can join.

I am sure there a few top dog SEO consultants that would be willing to do a quick site review for $100 or so for a fellow SEO consultant.

8 - 1hr reviews a day would be $800, 21 working days a month would give you $16,800 or $201k a year.

QUICKSECONDOPINION.COM is available.

Ouch! This is the reason you need to make friends you can email in the SEO industry, not post randomly on threads, especially one used by 90% of webmasters.

..and yes charging for a service you think is not going to work is criminal.

I think anyone who needs to rely on forums for SEO guidance should be up front with their clients they are still learning the basics (although he could have chosen a better forum, in my opinion).

I don't think people should be sneaky and try to hide the fact from their clients that they seek a second opinion.

Like Stuart P. Turner said above, if you're in this business and think you don't need to ask questions, you don't need to be in this business. I ask questions all the time -- openly as much as possible.

Maybe my questions are a little more esoteric, but if my clients look over my shoulder I want them to see I'm just sitting around dreaming up stuff. I'm looking for new information and enlightenment.

I hope the client is open to that position, but I also hope the SEO is not trying to take on a task for which he is not qualified.

Nice work on the post. I see it's inhabiting spots in the top 10 positions for "seo company" on Google today. Nice work.

mcbrett, QDF at its best http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QyFlIhruda4

I can see Vygantas point of view and even entertain it somewhat; but I am more inclined to agree with Barry on this one.

We are not born with SEO wisdom from the womb; it must be researched and acquired whether it is via primary or secondary research methods.

@ Vygantas, some SEO projects, I agree, require mainly common sense from an SEO and thus can be completed with existing knowledge.

However if a project came along that was beyond an SEO’s knowledge base, I do not think it wrong or unethical for an SEO to write a proposal for that respective client because he has the necessary skills set to arrive at a more educated conclusion.

*Bill Gates my hero, bluffed his way on his first job while setting up Microsoft.

* This is from memory and is my opinion and not seroundtable.com’s opinion.

I can see both sides, is the whole point of hiring a consultant in this case and SEO, so that they do all the work and find out exactly what needs to be done etc for you, how that gets done is irrelevant as long as the results are achieved?

If you hire a plumber but he doesnt know what pipe he needs for a certain job so he goes away finds out then fits the pipe? would you then complain because you could have done the same job by asking the same people?

SEO has always been a trial and error research progress where there is no definitive 'best' method because its totally governed by the Search Engines, so these "Experts" wouldn't exist if the forums and communities didn't either. We all read them, use them and comment on them and the use of them shouldn't be a measure of how qualified you are.

I don't see any problem with throwing out a question to other SEO "experts" for their opinion. I am a retired physician and I often asked colleagues for input on a problem case.

I agree with the Gary bashers. He should find another line of work. A real SEO, with integrity, would not take money for recommendations that they do not believe will work for a client. In SEO there are no hopeless situations, just tough recommendations, tough decisions on the clients part, and then alot of hard work. I also agree, if you need the forums to make a solid recommendation then you shouldn't be doing SEO.

@Michael – I agree with you – honesty is the best policy.

@Dale, a plumber has to be Gas Safe Registered (previously Corgi) in the UK; not sure about the U.S.

Thus, a plumber must know all about his job and have passed all his exams before attempting a job to ensure all health and safety requirements are met.

If new regulation is introduced, he or she is then required to do an update course in order to be compliant.

Think of a world that outlines the correct way to SEO; that will kill the industry and the search engines would have to pack up shop and go home.

For this reason in my opinion I think comparing SEO's to Plumbers is like comparing apples with pears.

@JB, I do subscribe to your “a lot of hard work” to make a more probable SEO result.

My brethren, I like to share a revelation I had; I realised that the SEO role is rather peculiar, similar to a fortune teller.

It is special because there are no stipulated regulations, but in both jobs there are morals, ethics and common sense which clearly differ for individual to individual.

I go onto the webmaster help forums sometimes and ask for help and I find that the users there are very hostile towards SEOs. One of the members even tried threatening me telling me he would go and tell my client about the thread like I would be scared, I said go ahead of course and he soon shut up.

I AM AN SEO, I AM 100% PROUD ABOUT WHAT I DO AND MY BUSINESS IS TOTALLY TRANSPARENT

So why should I feel like I can't go onto the Google webmaster help forum for a hand sirs?

One more thing SEO is not something that can be mastered like plumbing - nobody has all the answers. When I go on there it is because something abnormal has happened, I expect that it is the same for most SEO professionals that visit, it's not like I go on there and ask how to do my keywords or something.

Its not the fact he asked for help that I personally have an issue, however as you stated Barry the fact he thought he could it would not work (and yet accepted the project) seems morally wrong.

That aside he also mentions the impact oreecent updates, something which he should well be aware of given the number of clients they work with and the level of business intelligence monitoring of those clients would provide...

I would expect someone who claims to be an SEO professional to have more sense than to post senstive information about a client in a manner that meant that said client could be easily identified.
Asking advice about a specific point - I've no problem with that. But posting links to the site! I'm staggered at the degree of stupidity. I think a client has every expectation of confidentiality - you don't tell anyone outside the building!

Congrats Barry you are on the 1st page of Google.com for SEO with this post you SEO legend.

Not knowing the specifics this SEO found himself in, and other projects, everyone seems blind to the fact that it's quite possible this was simply the convergence of the sap having just acquired the results from testing a bunch of stuff - which focused exclusively on a certain method of optimization, and seeing if his post might provide some future insights from the belly of the beast itself. So remove the particulars, and in this view (granting he's GOT other clients), the statement about 'not getting rankings back', seems an exquisite canonical plea for just such prized information.

Just another day, testing at the office, which, should be partly funded by a percentage of what one charges, eh?

@ David Eaves
I wonder if Michael Martinez above agrees that Barry is on the 1'st page of Google for SEO with this post because he is an SEO legend, or if he is an SEO legend with this post because for SEO, he's on the first page of Google?

Sorry ... I had to do that :-)

Belly of the Beast!
Belly of the Beast.
Ahh...

lol.. barry isn't an seo he just reports on the SE world... two very different things!

I personally think the Gary-bashing is a little unfair.

If he works, as claimed on the Google thread, for Just Search then surely as a SEO company there should be other, more experienced SEOs there than he seems to be?

The question surely is why does an employee from Just Search feel the need to be asking publicly for help when it's meant to be a professional seo company?

I think the real situation was he failed to have their best interests in mind by disclosing the clients URL in a forum. Anyone worth their salt who has a Google Blog Search with their name or URL in it with an alert can manage their reputation or at least get a heads up. Nothing wrong with asking peers, just be more discrete with sensitive details...

I agree sir, there's nothing wrong with appealing to the community for help, that's how we all learn. I would suggest that anyone who is arrogant enough to think they don't need to ask questions should be the one revoking their services.

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